Ep 38: A Conversation with Dennis Welch

In this episode, John chats with singer-songwriter Dennis Welch. Dennis reached out to John a few months ago and this interview is their first official meeting.

Dennis describes himself as a lifelong songwriter who is experiencing a musical renaissance in his sixties. After an 18-year break from recording, an unexpected phone call changed everything. Since then, he's released three acclaimed albums, worked with some incredible musicians, and even found his music appearing on the first-round Grammy ballot multiple times. 

It's a great conversation about creativity, perseverance, and what can happen when you refuse to believe your best work is behind you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You are listening to the Gig to Live Podcast. Welcome everyone. I'm John Foles and I'm a full-time working musician. This podcast is about building a music life that holds up over time. It's practical, enjoyable, sometimes uncomfortable, but it's always about helping you stay in the game and actually enjoy the life that you're building. We'll meet some wonderful working musicians from time to time. So whether you're just getting started or you've been doing this for years, you're in the right spot. This podcast is for you. Hey everyone, welcome to the show today. Man, I am glad that you are here. One of my favorite things to do on this podcast is to interview guests. I always learn something in the process. I think we all learn something in the process. Today, I have in the studio with me Dennis Welch. This is the first time that Dennis and I are talking, so I'm excited to talk with him. And how this all played out is Dennis reached out to me about being on the show, told me a little bit about his story. He sent me a note saying that he's a lifelong songwriter and a creative who is experiencing a, and I love the way he said this, a musical renaissance in his 60s. He said he started writing songs in his late teens, and then over the years he recorded the occasional album. He said he was blessed because he got, you know, a lot of that early work was played on the radio. He was thankful for that. And then in 2000, he recorded an album. And although he kept writing again as if he might record again soon, he went 18 years without making another record. And then out of the blue, a longtime Little River band guitarist and a friend of his, Rich Herring, heard one of his songs and offered to produce a single. And then he immediately thought that was his best recorded work ever. And that turned into an album in 2021 called What Love Makes Us Do. And the album was on the first Grammy Ballot in five categories, which is super fun. That's impressive. And in 23, uh he released If I Live to Be 100, and let's hope you do, and let's hope I do, uh, as long as everything feels good in these broken down clay pots we live in. Uh and that too was on the first Grammy Ballot in five categories. Uh his latest album is called Strong, and uh that was released uh recently too. So, Dennis, man, I am glad to have you here today.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Well, thank you, John. It's great to be here. And uh I love talking about this stuff, man. You know, I I um uh I turned 70 in January, and um, and you know, um we had a big celebration at Houston, did a gig, some of my old bandmates got together with me, and you know, we did we we had a full house, it was fun, and uh, and you know, um uh sometimes people ask me, uh how how boy, you sure are strategic. You know, how how did you make this happen, man? And it's like, you know what, I I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. You know, it's uh I think the only thing I would say is that when nothing was going on, when it appeared that nothing was going on, I never stopped uh thinking that something might go on. Does that make sense? And so, you know, and so I continued to uh do that. And in fact, your show is called Gig to Live, and I I really had sort of stopped gigging. I I during that time, the only thing I stopped, I kept writing, but I would play once a year in Houston or one of you know somewhere where I knew there were people who cared, and but I didn't play out much, and uh and all of that brother just changed uh in the I mean what I'm doing now, you you see, you can see at least you can see behind me this sound system. Uh it's my sound system. Uh it's set up so that I can rehearse every day. Uh I have a show, I have a house concert to do in uh Bastrop, Texas this Saturday night's already jammed with people, which is wonderful. Uh and I'm like, what am I doing? How did this happen? But that that we'll get to that. But yeah, I'm this is you know, I I love talking about it because I a lot of people give up before they turn the corner and find that one person who makes a difference. And uh, you know, and so that's that's at least part of my story is that you know, if the right person comes along in your life one time with exactly what you need, John, you would say, uh maybe you would say, well, that's just dumb luck. But but I've had it happen fifty times probably in my life, where it's like I I didn't make this happen and this person just showed up with so it's like, you know what, then it stops being stop I think stops being dumb dumb luck at that point, you know?

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot on this show in different episodes about the importance of relationships, you know, fostering those relationships and having a community. And so I think what you're saying right there is, you know, that's proof in the pudding, you know, that that the people you know uh really help carry you through and make a difference, and sometimes in huge ways in those awe-inspiring, like just turn the corner kind of ways.

unknown 5:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

So why don't you why don't you back up for all of us, including me, and uh tell us about, you know, your early years in music, how you got started, um, maybe what you celebrate about those early years, but give us a little bit of your history.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Well, you know, uh, first of all, I I was raised in a home where uh, you know, my parents, especially my dad, loved country music. And uh and so I grew up on country music, a lot of country stuff in my house. But then, you know, when I got to driving and got in a got a car and stuff, you know, I listened to pop, popular music and uh that wasn't country, but I still liked country. I still do like some country. I I don't know about the modern stuff, but who doesn't like George Jones, right? And so um, but I didn't play an instrument and I wasn't encouraged to play an instrument. And uh both my older brothers uh could sing. They were five and ten years older than me, and they sang some in church and this and that. My oldest brother played a guitar, acoustic guitar, and but I didn't play any instrument. And so one night I'm driving home from a date, and uh it must have been a good one, must have been a good date. I was driving home, and out of the blue, John, I just I just start singing, I just start hearing music and a story, and uh, and I write a song. And you know, back then there weren't phones and and places to record quickly, and so it worried me that I might forget it. And so uh, and here's an example of what we're talking about. So I was working, I was going to school full-time, working full-time, you know, just the way it was. And the guy who was my boss at the time, uh or my manager, always kept his uh ovation guitar under his desk all the time. And so I went in the next day, and because I didn't know what to do, I didn't even, I don't know if I'd even written down the lyrics, to be honest with you. And I just started singing it, and I just sang it to myself all day, and I thought nobody was listening. And at toward the end of the day, Mike goes, uh, he goes, Hey man, uh, what what is that? Because you've been singing it all day long. And I said, Yeah, yeah, it's a song I wrote, you know, driving home last night from a date, and uh I I don't know where I don't understand it. And he goes, Well, you don't have to understand it. He goes, Here's an idea, and he said, Let's play it. And he took his guitar out from under his desk, John, and he played, and we sang this song together. Essentially, I sang it, but he played and sort of got the idea. And when it was done, he said, Look, that's a real song, man. It's got a chorus, it's kind of hooky. Uh you know, and he said, So why don't you go out and buy a really cheap guitar in case you don't like playing guitar and uh learn how to play it and see if maybe there's more of these out there. Well, what a revelation that was. So I went out and bought a hundred dollar Ventura guitar and I started learning chords, and the problem I had was I couldn't learn chord progressions without hearing words. And uh, and I mean, literally every chord progression I heard, I started writing more songs immediately. And then, you know, in 1980, I did an album. It was kind of a gospel album, but it wasn't really gospel. I mean, I happened to be a Christian, but um, but you know, it was uh not like any other gospel stuff on on Christian radio, and my stuff just got played everywhere. I heard it all day long while I was driving around Houston. Those those songs got played every single day. And I think in part because they were different, you know. And uh and how encouraging, you know. And so um, and so, you know, that songwriting switch went on right there. And uh, and then I did a uh the next album, I did a I did a rock and roll album and uh had a smoking great band. Um, and um, and that record did well too. It got played on, you know, I did a silly thing, John. I walked in, I didn't know what I was doing, and so I walked into KLOL, the album rock station in Houston, that, you know, uh was the big, really big station in Houston at the time, and I took Man of Steel, my second album, in there, had a cool cover. This girl did a fabulous cover, and it looked national. It looked like a big deal, but it wasn't, okay. And so I went in and the little receptionist was there, and she clearly had had this conversation before.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

And yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

And I walked in and I said, I'm Dennis Welch, and I said, I recorded this rock album, and I said, I think it might be something you guys might think about playing, and I said, Maybe not, but I'd love for somebody here to hear it. And she was very condescending. She laughed at me and she said, Son, she goes, Call me son, and said, You know, son, you know, you understand we haven't played anybody local since Z Z Z Top, and so we're just not, just won't you take your little record and go home, kind of thing. That. And it felt like that too. And it was, it was difficult. And so I said, Well, I said, let me explain something to you, ma'am. I said, I'm not great at taking no for an answer. And so here's what I'm gonna do. I said, I'm gonna leave this record on your desk. And I said, you can heat it up and make an ashtray out of it for all I care. I said, but I'm leaving it. And I said, appreciate your time today. I know it's important, and I'm, you know, thank you. And I walked out. Well, two weeks later, I'm sitting in my little furniture store doing my job, and the phone rings, and you know, I there was no caller ID, so I didn't know who it was. And I picked up and it's the program director at KLOL. And he goes, he goes, Is this Dennis Welch? A man of steel, Dennis Welch? I said, Yeah, yes, sir, it is. And he goes, Well, I'm gonna tell you something, buddy. He goes, This record made it into a stack of national records that we sit in a room and listen to every week. And he said, as soon as the arm dropped down on the title track on Man of Steel, everybody in the room said, Oh my God, that's a huge song. Some, some, where is this? Who is this guy, right? And so bring me five more records so I can give me five more so I can give them away on air. And he goes, This song will go into rapid rotation tomorrow. And so all of a sudden, I'm driving around Houston, and I'm, you know, if I'm at a light and I had my window down, I heard my music in somebody else's car. It was crazy. So anyway, and so, you know, so that that switch was on. The songwriting switches went on and never went off, really. Uh, and then, you know, we did a record in '95, uh, and I had all these crazy great musicians who were playing with me, and they were making zero dollars doing it. They just did it because they loved me and they loved the music. Uh, I had Peter Gabriel's percussionist playing with me. I had the principal cellis in the Houston Symphony, uh, the guy who produced King's X, uh, Sam Taylor, my wife worked for him, and he was a great piano player. Uh, and so anyway, and so we made a record in uh '95 called Father's Day. And then I made a record in 2000 that you mentioned called uh Songs from My Window Seat. And I I produced that with a friend, Sam Eddy, great friend. And but you know what? But I we we both kind of left there like, well, we like this, but I said, you know, Sam, I I need I'm not an arranger, and neither are you. And we're really not producers. Uh we've chronicled this stuff, so I can move on to the next songs, but but you know, I feel like there's somebody who can really elevate this stuff. Uh and so I want to hold until I find that person, you know, love you, appreciate your time on this and everything, but this is just what I'm gonna do. And he totally got it. He said, I understand that. And so that I didn't know what I was saying because 18 years later, I still had not gone back, even gone inside a recording studio to hear somebody else record. That's how that's how many years passed.

unknown 13:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

That's crazy. Well, Sam Taylor, that that uh caused me to sit up a little bit in my seat. I'm a huge Kings X fan.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

So me too. They're the best three-piece rock band I ever heard, brother. They're great.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Oh my gosh. I've seen them multiple times. I I heard they're just uh they're out on tour right now anyway. I don't want to get sidetracked, but yeah. Where are you geographically, can I ask? Currently, I'm in Michigan. Okay. And my wife and I live uh six months out of the year in the Midwest and six months out of the year on the West Coast in California and you're all of those places. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Well, you you'll be happy to know that uh when uh that at one point, you know, when I was still struggling trying to figure out what I was gonna do, the thing that got me out of the music business, actually, was in my in my 30s, Sam Taylor called me. And my wife was working for him, helping him produce his videos and was like his aide. And uh and he called me and he goes, Hey, the band is going out with Billy Squire in a band called Blue Murder, and uh so I want you to go out as Doug Pennick's bass tech. And I said, I said, Well, wait a minute. I said, Sam, I don't know anything about bass guitars. What are you doing? Why are you doing this? He goes, Because I know you need the money. And he said, You haven't heard the good part. He goes, it's $500 a week in a per diem. So just get in, just get on the airplane and go to Minneapolis and start. And you know what, John, my boys were little. I'd been home with them all the time. You know, I was mama daddy, and uh, it was heartbreaking. And so we went up there, I went up there, flew up there, it was like 80 degrees in Houston, it was 12 in Minneapolis, and we start this circus, man. And uh every day the road manager would come in and say, he was so excited. He goes, Oh God, we've added 10 more dates to the tour. I'm like, that's 10 more days. I got to call those little boys and tell them that I don't know when I'm coming home. And so, you know, I got all over, I didn't say three weeks is all. And I got to Salt Lake City, Utah, and I called Sam and I said, uh, hey man, you know what? I've never been drunk and I've never taken drugs. And I said, but I'm gonna tell you something. If I stay out here a year, which is how long this is gonna last, I'm afraid I'm gonna be doing both and it's probably gonna kill me. I said, so what do I do? And he goes, he was so sweet. He goes, Well, you know, Dennis, sometimes the ladder of success is against the wrong wall. And he goes, So why don't you go home, figure out what you want to do with your life? But I'm gonna ask you to do something for me because you owe me. I said, Okay. He goes, please don't stop writing songs. Please don't let this break you from writing songs because you're a terrific songwriter, please. And I said, you know what, I promise I won't. Well, here's what really happened uh is I came home and I was pissed off. I'm like, you know what? I this I've been put I've been chasing this for all these years, and now that I'm seeing it firsthand, I can't do it. And so so I came home, I put my guitar in uh the guest room closet in the house that we were in at the time, and I told my wife, I said, Susie, you know what, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not a songwriter, I can't do this. I'm just I'm giving up. And so almost a year went by. And I was miserable, John. You know I was. Like, well, if you're if you're called to do something, this is your wiring and this is how you're made to go to say, no, I'm just not doing it because it's difficult. What are you talking about? That's that's that's uh delusional, right? So anyway, and so one night, about four o'clock in the morning, uh I woke up out of a sound sleep and I went down the hallway and I took my guitar out and I sat down on the little bed there in the guest room, and I wrote a song in about 20 minutes called Jacob's Ladder. And it was it, and people loved this song, but this song really is was for me, you know. Uh and it was it explains so much, and and one of the bridge lines is you know, but I've seen the angels when they're going to and fro, they don't have to know the reason. He just speaks and off they go. And so I so the next like couple of Sundays, I sang it in my church. It was the first time I'd sung in public in forever. And man, the response. So it's recorded that song is on um it's on the Father's Day record. So you know, and then I got back to writing and playing some, and then Sam and I and these boys got together and you know, and it sort of it it sort of encouraged me a little bit of fuel to keep going. But I went and I went to work for the Gallup organization. I went back and got an MBA. I did a lot of stuff, and uh but I still I still was writing, you know, in my spare time and all that.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

So well, you've had a full music life. Uh so I mean you worked with Rich Herring, like we said, from uh Little River Band. And then uh you I read somewhere that you also worked with Alan Chamblin, uh who's Nashville songwriter, hall of fame writer, and wrote an amazing song, uh I Can't Make You Love Me, one of the writers on that, uh that Bonnie Raitt made so popular. So those are great. I mean, what did uh experiences like that teach you as a musician?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Well, you know, John, Alan Shamlin and I became friends. Uh I was when I came to Austin, my music attorney, Ed Fair, said, Hey, you need to join the Austin Songwriters Group. And I'd lived in Houston my whole life. And then Susie and I moved out to Atlanta for three years. When we came back to Houston, and I left Gallup, she said, Look, we can live anywhere, right? I said, Yeah. She goes, Well, I don't want to live in Houston. I want to live somewhere else. And so let's go to Austin. So that's how we got here. Well, I joined the Austin Songwriter Group, and the first thing they have is they have a weekend songwriter retreat, and they're bringing in all these killer writers from Nashville. They were just everybody you ever heard of. And um, and I was reluctant to go. My attorney kept saying, Go, just go to this. And I said, I'm not gonna walk around carrying a CD and handing it to people and wishing they'd help me and all. I don't know how to do that. And so he said, Well, don't do that then. Just go and enjoy yourself. So Susie and I check into the hotel down here, and and by day two, man, I was digging it and I was on the front row of everything we were doing. And uh, and so my my tune had changed. And uh, and so Alan did a session. Uh, and you know, this was before he wrote the house that built me, the CMA song of the decade. Crazy, right? And so, but he already had I Can't Make You Love Me, and he he and I have become great friends, and he said, Look, when I die, the song they're gonna put on my headstone is that is that song. But anyway, and so he tells his story about how he got to Nashville, and uh, and it was this very circuitous, crazy story. He's standing in a line at a at a at a uh like a cafeteria, and the lady here in Austin, not even in Nashville, and the lady in front of him goes, Are you a songwriter? Just out of the blue. And he goes, Well, he goes, uh, I I'm not I'm not one now, but I want to be. And he was he was doing something like he was doing something in, I don't know, insurance or something at the time. And so uh here's my card, call me. And it turned out that she was some major publishing guru, right? So anyway, he tells a story, and when he's done, he goes, anybody have any questions? Well, I was on the practical on the front row. I raised my hand and I said, Yeah. I said, I don't have a question, but I have two statements to make about your story. I said, number one is that uh you've proven something to me that I believe. I said, number one is that the steps of a righteous man are ordered. I said, you know what, you didn't make that happen. There's no way. He goes, No, I didn't. And I said, secondly, is that God's timing is not my timing, and I sure as heck wish it was, because I'm always telling you when I want him to do stuff, he never does it like that. He does it right. And when it and everybody cheered, yay! Well, when it was over, when the thing was over, to my surprise, he walked straight through the throng of people to me. And he goes, Hey man, I believe every single thing you just said. And he goes, So that's great for me. He goes, What does that mean for you? And I said, well, I don't know. I don't know what it means. I'm just here listening. He goes, no, no. He goes, let's get to the bottom of this. He goes, meet me in the morning outside my hotel room. Here's my hotel room number where there's not a crowd. And he goes, You sit, you bring three Dennis Welp songs and play them for me. Talk about pressure, John. Come on. Oh, sure. Yeah. So I played them for him and he stood up when he when I finished, he stood up and he pointed at me. He said, Dude, you have to try harder. You have to, I don't know what you're thinking. These are great songs. So that started a friendship. And really, we were just friends for years and years before we wrote a song together. And he's another guy, kind of like Rich Herring. I was never going to ask Rich Herring to help me. I knew who he was working with. Are you kidding? And so anyway, one day, uh, and this is a this is another example, John, of things happening that you go, I can't explain that. So we're driving home from Louisiana, my wife and I are, and I get a call from Alan. And we were talking about once every week or two at that point. And when we go to Nashville, we'd go to lunch with him and his women and his wife and stuff. So we were friends, but we weren't music associates yet. And so, and maybe aren't even now, but we're still best friends. But anyway, and so he calls me, goes, Hey, how can I help you with your music, man? How can I, can I love this stuff? How can I help you? And I said, You know what, Alan? You can't help me because I'm not going to ask you to. I'm the one guy in your circle that's not, doesn't need anything from you except to be your friend. He goes, Okay. He goes, that is uh, that's on the table. Just remember it when the time comes. One week later, I pitched a song called Worth My Time to a little couple in Nashville, and uh they were looking for songs, and I get this big dim the lights email back from them saying, uh, hey, this is a spectacular idea. We love it. We think this song could be I Can't Make You Love Me, but you've got some more writing to do on it. Are you willing to do that? So, you know what I did, John? I forwarded that email to the guy who wrote I Can't Make You Love Me. And I sent my version of the song that I'd been singing. I already had recorded it on my 2000. I thought we were done here. Okay. Well, one week later he calls me, and it was a Sunday afternoon. I will never forget it because it was transformational. He goes, uh, hey, Dennis, uh, you might want to sit down. This is gonna take a while. So he wasn't kidding. So an hour later, he had drilled so far down into this song, John, and these two people in the song, the characters, it was so ridiculous. And he goes, Here's what I'm gonna do, buddy. He goes, This is a very important song. This song gives people who are being abused, either physically or verbally or whatever, the right to grow a backbone and walk away. And he goes, That's you can throw a rock and hit somebody near you, and everybody, somebody's dealing with it. And he goes, This is a you've got to get this song, and they're right, it needs to be better than this. So he said, Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna co-write this song with you. I'd love to, but he goes, I'm not going to, because he said, People will say that you sat in the room while I wrote it because they don't know you, and this is your song. But he goes, here's what I am gonna do. I'm gonna call you every night at nine o'clock, and I'm gonna see what kind of progress you've made on this song. And you know what, John? He wasn't kidding. Okay, he called me, he called me a Hall of Fame writer calling me every night. What a privilege, right? Well, after six months of this, I was sick of the song, you know? And and I, so we went to Nashville and and we went out to their farm for dinner, for lunch one day, and I told Susie, I said, Don't even mention this song. I said, I'm I don't even I've written 50 last verses and none of them are working, you know, and I was just tired of it. So I wrote this in my book, uh, So What Are You Say? And it's the last story, and it's a it's a great lesson. Okay. So after lunch, of course, you know what he does. Hey, come on in my writing round, let me hear that latest, last verse. And I said, and I was like, so we go in and he hands me a guitar. He goes, the last guy to play this guitar is Mac Davis. Don't mess it up. So I play the latest, last verse, and he goes, No, that's not it, Dennis. He goes, a great song puts you in a trance. And he goes, the last verses you're writing are taking me out of a trance. And I said, Well, you know what? Deacon, we had got nicknames for each other by then. I was preacher and he was deacon. I said, Deacon, tell me, do you guys write like this? I've written 50 last verses. And he reaches under this is the lesson, John. He reaches under his desk and he pulls out a dictionary thick stack of legal paper, all in ballpoint pen, no technology at all. And he pushes it across the table to me. He goes, That is one song I've been working on for seven years. He goes, Yes, you can quit your whining now. This is how we do it. If you want to do something great, it doesn't happen in a second. As a rule, it doesn't. Not that I haven't written those kind of songs, but this is how you really do it. Well, so I left there aghast that we might have six more years of this, you know. But here's what really happened a few months later, and we did everything, man. We talked every night. We we prayed on the phone. He we cried one night because like he said, Dennis, you gotta figure this out. So anyway, so one night I had enough, and I said, I said, Deacon, let me ask you a question. I said, Do you know what this last verse is? And he goes, I probably do. I said, Well, is it gonna wreck your songwriting career to have your name on a song with a no-name Texas writer? And he goes, Dennis, what are you talking about? Of course not. I said, Well, then why in the world don't you write this and put us out of our misery? Okay. Right? And so he said, give me two weeks. Give me two weeks. I know you're deliberate, but we've been working on this every night for six months. And he said, Two weeks, give me two weeks. So he leaves the phone, he comes back to the phone in five minutes, and he calls me and he goes, Okay, how about this? Is it worth this pain? And your words that bruise, should I be the one you love to use? If I have to ask, then I should know that it's worth my time to let you go. Are you freaking kidding me? I said, five minutes, deacon. How did you do that? He goes, Well, I don't want to pull a rank on you or anything. He goes, but listen, my sword is sharper than yours. Because I do this every day, eight hours a day, right? And so, you know, so that's that was the lesson. It's like, you know what, it changed my the way I write songs, John. Is I I, you know, I started uh uh I I take the time now to go back and rethink things and stuff, and these songs, that's why these new songs I just turned four into rich last week. They're they're better, they're better songs, they're they're more complete songs.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Is it worth this me? Your words that bruise should I be the one you love to use? If I have to ask, I should know that it's worth my time to let you go after all the through much.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Talk about the age factor for us in general. I have I have a a a ton of friends that are out there gigging full-time in their late 50s, early 60s. Um, and I know the things that they're running up against.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Can you sure well look, you know, uh if if anybody had told me uh, John, that I would be uh let me turn my okay, there we go. Uh you know what, if anybody had so first of all, you know what? It really is, people say it, but it really is just a number, you know? It really is. I so I have a friend, the guy who produced my the record in 2000 with me, Sam. So Sam is an expert in all things hospital and healthcare. He's been doing it for 45 years. He said he when he sits in a room, he's the smartest guy in the room. Well, so uh a few years ago, uh he was working for some young guys who had pulled him into a consultancy because he was the smartest guy in the room. Remember that part? So you know what? So they they thought we'll make money off of Sam. Well, after a couple of years of making money off of Sam and him making money, they just decided they were bored and they decided to just blow it off and they disbanded. Well, he called me. I guess I might have been his first call. And he said, he said, so hey man, uh tell me about uh what I'm supposed to do now because I lost my job today. I'm in my mid-60s. Nobody's gonna hire a guy like me, an old man like me. And so uh I said, Well, uh, here's what I would do. I'll get your get Christy, get your wife, and get in a car and drive over here to Austin and let's sit on my back porch and let's talk about what you're gonna do. And so he's he dutifully does it and he gets here and we're sitting on the back porch, and I said, Sam, let me ask you a question. I said, Are you uh, did you hit your head on the way in here? And he said, No. And I said, Well, uh, did so so your brain still works, right? Really good. And he goes, Oh yeah, I think maybe better than ever. And I said, Well, what about your Rolodex? What about the people who will take your calls? And he goes, Oh yeah, uh much, much better, uh, much better than ever. And I said, Well, okay, uh so I said, and do you ever sit in a room where something comes up and you go, oh my God, I never seen that before? Well, no, and that doesn't happen. And you could see his back beginning to straighten from the bow that it was when he got there, like he was under it. And I said, Well, let me tell you what I would do. I said, I wouldn't walk around with my hat in my hand and try to uh tell to win a job from somebody, because you don't need to do that. I said, you know what I would do? I'd go to your Rolodex, I would send out an email to every single person and say, hey, you know what? I'm a free agent now. And so if you need to parse data, if you need to close a deal, if you need somebody to consult, you call me and I'll I'll do it. And don't do it for McDonald's money, do it for lawyer money, okay? Because you're valuable. You're more valuable now than you were when you were 30, Sam. And I said, Who told you you weren't? And he goes, dude, I'm gonna try that. Well, at the end of one year, John, he calls me and he goes, Hey, can I tell you something? One year ago, today, we sat on your back porch and had this conversation. He goes, It's my best year I've ever had financially, is this year in my mid-60s. I never would have guessed that. And I said, See, that's because the culture lies to us and says, you know what, John, you're done. Okay, you're done. You know, you're you're this is a young man's game. That's all crap. You know, uh, if you've been doing something you love for this long, you're probably really good at it. In fact, you're probably better than you've ever been at it. And so why would you choose to uh accept that? And I've just chosen not to. I just have chosen not to, and I and and and you know, right on cue, man. Right on cue, Rich Herring shows up and starts making these ridiculous records out of this stuff. And it's like if you're not enthused before you hear the mix of that next song, you will be after you hear it. And it'll make you write more songs and make you do. I mean, this is the most productive time of my life. And you know, we're gonna talk about house concerts, but but I Susie and I went on tour last fall. What in the heck was that about? And we were we were all over. We were in Maine and New Hampshire and stuff. So, you know, so just don't believe it, man. You know what? If this is what you love doing, figure out a way to do it. If your back bothers you and you shouldn't be carrying a giant amp around, well then get a smaller one, you know?

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, have you personally felt pressure from the music industry or or wherever to, you know, believe somehow your best years were behind you? Has anybody ever tried to make you feel that way?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Not at all. And and and here's the thing is that you have to you have to insulate yourself. What you believe matters, okay? So a few months ago, I I did a I'm in a group called the Nashville Publishers Network. We meet once a month on Zoom. It's a bunch of old people who complain about the way the music business is now. But it's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

It's fun.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Oh, it's so fun. But it's really a great bunch of people. They're they're awesome. But you know, somewhere in there, it's like this is how it used to be. It's like, well, it's not that anymore, okay? Sure. Well, we have speakers sometimes, and we had a girl come in. This lady came in and spoke to us, and she's a muckety muck who'd been in Sony music, and everybody in Nashville knows her. And it was the sweetest presentation, John. It was like no Rasmataz. It was like, you know, um uh anyway, she understood what songwriters are dealing with. And so I sent her an email because we all had her email, and I sent her a note and I said, Leanne, I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee next time in Nashville. She goes, well, that would be great, but you understand that I how I get paid now is I consult with songwriters. I said, okay, give me an hour and 15 minutes or whatever, hour and 15, which is weird, but an hour and 15 minutes, which is what the on her website, that's what you bought, is you bought an hour and 15. I said, give me one of those and let me pay for it. And I'm telling you, it was the best money I ever spent. It was fantastic. It was exactly what I thought it would be. But at the end, she asked me this question. She said, So I I asked this songwriters, I've been doing this for years, uh, what is your definition of success? And I said, Well, um, first of all, uh, I want to say for people uh what they probably don't know how to say for themselves. That's one. Number two is I want to uh start as many uplifting and helpful conversations as I can, and music is the best way I know how to do that. Books might be second. And number three, when I sit in a room to do anything, I said, I'll I don't want to take one shortcut. I want to stay with it until it's done right. And there was this really pregnant pause. And she said, So you understand I've been asking this question for years. I've never had a songwriter answer like that. And I she goes, You didn't mention money, you didn't mention uh uh George Strait cutting your song, you you didn't mention uh movies and TV picking up your stuff and licensing it from you didn't mention any of that. I said, Well, wait a minute. I said, you know what, that's not what you asked. So let me be clear. Every artist would like to have more people hear their stuff, of course. I said, but that wasn't your question. Your question was, what is my definition of success? And by my own definition, I'm already a successful songwriter.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

So if somebody else gets a George Straight cut, you know what happens? I I'm I rejoice with them, John. I don't, I don't feel like, oh, it wasn't me. You know, it's like it's a win-lose, you know, zero-sum game. I'm not playing that. And so once you insulate yourself like that and you really believe it, then you know what? Then you don't really feel any of that. There might be some people out there. I mean, look, I I have a publishing, music publishing administrator. I I didn't get one of those. This guy's in Nashville, he's in the music business. What's he doing working with me? I didn't get that until I was 68 years old. So that guy doesn't think I'm too old. Right? And so, you know, and the people who are sitting out there Saturday night and listening and buying CDs and and and going and getting on the mailing list and all that, those people couldn't give a hoot how old I am. And so, but you know, first you have to you have to change what you listen to, what you believe. And if you bel if you don't believe that the stuff, then then you're gonna be swept away by the culture. You know, and that's just that's a shame because you know, you how can I ask how old you are? 58. 58, blah blah. You know what? You got lots of time, brother. You got a lot, you can do, you got lots more to do, and and you should you should do it, and you should love every minute of it and relish it and basically to heck with what anybody else in the in the business. You're not seeing me, but I'm I'm putting quotation marks. I've never been in I've never been in the music business, really, John. I haven't. I'm but I I love music and I love writing songs and making records and stuff, but I've never really been in the business where I've got somebody going, no, no, no, we need this to happen. Yeah. And I'm convinced, the last thing I'll say about it, I'm convinced the reason the 60s and and a good part of the 70s were so crazy productive. I don't even know if there'll ever be a time like that again. It's because you had a whole bunch of rebellious, spectacular artists who didn't give a crap about what some record company wanted them to do. They basically just said, you know what, go sit, go back to your office.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

We're gonna, we're Led Zeppelin and we're gonna make this record. And if nobody buys it, then you know what? That's your problem. And and that's what happened. And I just think it's a little bit of that. You know, uh I'm without being arrogant at all, just saying, you know what, I'm I'm here for this and I'm gonna do what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

Yeah, I love that. So I I want to get real for a second, as somebody who is 58 here, this is tear open my chest, be a bit vulnerable. Um I still have a bit of a Peter Pan complex. And even when you ask me that question, can I ask you how old you are? There's milliseconds of hesitation on my part where I go, do I really want people to know how old I am? Because even if I intuitively know my best years are still ahead, or you know, I still have a lot of, you know, piss and vinegar in me, or whatever the case is, um there's part, I think for a lot of us as musicians, even if we talk a good game, there's a lot of us that say, you know, it still seems like a young person's game out there, and we fear getting to a spot where we're no longer relevant. Um do you think that you have opportunities at this point in your life that you didn't have before? Or can you just talk a little bit into that myth that I'm, you know, confessing here to you?

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Well, John, you know what? Look, I think it's a look, it's so common what you're talking about. Uh, you know, uh a few years ago, I'll tell you a quick story. I always have a quick story, they're never quick, by the way. But I so I'm sweeping out my garage here at my house one day, and uh, and there was a uh when we moved in here, it was a new house, and the people next door, uh, a couple moved in, not married, but you know, a couple living cohabitating. Well, uh, I loved the guy, and he was so uh like I wanted this guy to be my neighbor forever. He was awesome. But then they they went into business together and their relationship blew up, and so I didn't see him anymore. Well, one day I'm sweeping my garage out, all of a sudden I see this guy bounding across my front little tiny front yard, and he picks me up and squeezes me so hard he nearly breaks my ribs. And he puts me down and he says, he goes, man, he goes, I'm watching what's happening for you on Facebook. And he goes, I can't I just think it's amazing. And here's what happened. Okay, so we're at 30,000 feet right there, right? He immediately comes straight down to the ground and he goes, Can I tell you something? He goes, You're 68. He goes, I'm 48. And he goes, you know what my nightmare is? My nightmare is I'm 68 someday and I'm not doing anything that matters. Yeah. Wow. Wow. I mean, I I like that what a what a what a gear shift that was. And so you know what I told him, John? I said, let me tell you something, Mike. I said, here's what, here's my Admonition to you. If you're gonna do something that matters at 68, you better start proactively working on that today. I said, because here's what it takes to be doing something at 68. And Susie and I have done it, it feels dangerous to even talk about it, okay? I said, but what we did is we on purpose, we left the road of perceived safety. And it's delusional to think that you're gonna be safe if you're with Ford Motor Company. They just laid off 10,000 people, white-collar people last year. It's like, how can you be safer than the Ford Motor Company? Well, apparently you can, but anyway, so so first you have to leave the road of safety. Uh you're gonna have to cut your way through the forest, you're gonna have to pave your own road. And here's some really bad news for people like me who are control freaks. I said, You don't have any idea where this road is going. That's the truth. And I said, and if you don't do these things, if you don't decide that you're gonna be doing something that matters, the culture is so that that is a tidal wave that goes on all the time, John, and it's pushing, it's pushing us out there. And it'll just take you out to pasture and you're done. And so, you know, and so uh I I think it's a uh it's an epidemic and it causes us to to uh discount what people our age, and I'll put you in my age bracket, because when you fill out those little things like a survey, you and I are probably in the same bracket. Dang it.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Well, why did you say that?

SPEAKER_03 45:33

No, no, it's like I saw a t-shirt at the gym the other day that said it feels weird being in a room with uh with uh I know it feels weird being as old as old people or something like that. Same age as old people. But you know, and so uh and so you you can choose to believe these things or not believe them. That's the truth. And you know what? And if you choose not to believe them, and then you but then you gotta take action. Yeah. You gotta say, you know what, I what do I want to do? You know, and you need to know what you want to do. And and look, all I know is is that when you start going out, I have a song called uh Why Not Me that really started this whole thing. And Why Not Me uh talks about there's an ocean deep and blue, it stretches out in front of you. On the other side is everything you dreamed of. So uh say a prayer and then set sail. And and what I found, John, is that when I set sail, because I always do, I don't sit on the shore and think, God, it looks dangerous out there, you know. No, I just go. And so, but here's here's the cool thing is that there are all of these crazy great things that are shrouded when you're sitting on the shore. You can't see those things. But you start going, and you're all of a sudden you get out there and you think there's nothing out here, and then the cloud lifts, and there's something cool. There's Rich Herring, there's Alan Chamblin, uh, there's uh Michael Peterson. I'm written five songs with Michael Peterson. This guy was a platinum country artist in the 90s and still an amazing, amazing artist, and uh was a friend, sort of at the time in the 90s, and then now we become great friends and we're writing songs together. Some of my best work is is going on this second with him, and so you know, none of that was visible. You know, uh if I had if I had accepted that it was I'm too old, then Michael Peterson wouldn't have gone on YouTube. I hadn't even spoken to the guy in 10 years. He goes on YouTube and listens to my new stuff and calls me out of the freaking blue, John, and says, Hey, you know what? I've been down a rabbit hole the last couple of days listening to your stuff. What happened to you? I said, Rich hearing is what happened to me, Michael. And he goes, Wow, that's cool, man. Well, let's let's keep talking. And then one day he hands me some lyrics and says, you know, can you think you might be able to do something with that? I said, I don't know, I'll try. And we wrote a song called These Three Things that's on the strong record. Anyway, that that's what happens when you when you go forward anyway. Um, and and the other thing I'll just say in closing on this part of it is that you know what, don't get rid of your naysayers, man. You know, don't surround yourself with people go, well, you know, John, you know, you're 58, you should be sitting in your rocking chair. That's crap. That's not true. And so just discard those people. Like, I love you, but I can't have you in my world because you're keeping me from doing something I I love doing just because I'm a certain age. If you believe that, that's your business, right? Yeah. So anyway I love it.

SPEAKER_04 48:34

I love it. Well, talk to us about doing you mentioned earlier about doing the house concerts, traveling. Um talk to us about that. I I mean, I'm sure traveling and doing house concerts still, I mean, feels different at this point in your life than it did when you were 25. Has to. It's better. That's what it is. Yeah, talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Well, you know what? So, so I I'm uh uh, you know, it's and again, here's another example. So I wasn't playing Harley at all, but I was still writing and making these records even. And in one week, so one week, Alan Shamlin's in Texas doing a bunch of shows, and on his way back to the airport, he calls him up, he goes, Hey dude, can I ask a question? He goes, How come you don't you're not out playing these songs? You're waiting on George Strait or somebody to record your songs. Why are you doing that? Go sing them yourself. And I said, Well, Alan, you know, I I I hate going into clubs and you know, the sound guy doesn't know what he's doing. I hate that kind of unpredictability. I gave him all these lame excuses, right? Well, within a week, my good friend Ken Laird, who I've known since the seventh grade, who loves music and plays, he calls me up and he goes, Can I ask a question? How come you're not playing out anymore? And why why do you not play? So, you know that. Well, you know, that started this renaissance really, because I I thought, okay, here's a way for me to control it. I'll buy my own sound system and I'll learn how to run it for a change. I've never done that. So I learned how to make this really sound great. Okay. I was sitting in a room for weeks doing that. And so uh so in so musically it's better. Uh my guitar sounds better than it's ever sounded. It I've always dissed my guitar and uh it turns out that it uh it needed a the different kind of string on it, and it needed uh a different pickup. And I've fixed that now, and now it sings like a mother. It's great. So, you know, and uh also I'm more comfortable in my own skin, John, than I've ever been. And so sitting down in front of people, I'm not worried about failing anymore. Because I have stage fright. I think if you don't have stage fright, I don't think you can do a good job. You need some of that. And uh and so sitting down Saturday night, all these, and look, what's cool is if you went and played a club, maybe nobody knows about you, they don't come. But if your friend says, Hey, come here, my friend, this Texas songwriter, he's gonna be here Saturday night, we'll have a little little, you know, frosty beverage and and a and a hamburger or something. You know, 50 people are coming Saturday night. And and so I um and here's the other thing is since it's not a club and it's not a public place at somebody's house, guess what happens? When it's over, people come and talk to you. And I dig that. It's like they come up and go, you know what, that song about that, can I tell you something? I I lived that song, and then you get you're in a conversation, it's beautiful. So I I'm I think I'm better.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah. How do you uh I don't want to pass by something you said. How do you think uh stage fright uh works in your favor?

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Well, I I have never not felt it from the very first time I sang. That same guy who had his ovation guitar under the under his desk, yeah, he's the first person to ask me to sing in public. And it was a kind of a roost, to be honest with you. He was our worship guy in our church, he and his wife, super talented people. And he calls me one day, goes, Well, well, you know, we got a sore throat, we got a ball, you know, can you won't you come sing a sing a song for us? What are you talking about? I'm don't I don't sing in public, you know. Are you kidding me? But I did it anyway because I cared about this guy and I was didn't want to let him down, so I did it, and it was a it was a train wreck. Uh and that made the fright worse the next time I did it because, like, remember that? You had it, and people would say years later, after I'd already made records and been on the radio and stuff, I'd have people, these old ladies go, you know, you remember that time you cried when you were in the middle of a song? Yes, I do, but I've done other stuff since then.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

Okay. I call that Thursday. It happens to me all the time.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

And so, you know what? And so here's the thing, John. What I what I think happens is so you're sitting in the wings and you're going, uh, you know, you can just feel it, man. It's like it's just your heart's palpitating. But then the minute I sit down and start, that all gets channeled into something like, you know what, don't cry again, man. Don't let that happen again. Don't just be great. Be as great as you can be, and be funny and tell stories and make this, these people leave here going, my God, this was what a great night it was. And so that's that's how it works. I think. I think if you're I think you're flat. If you don't have some of that angst before you start, it's like, you know what, I'm all that, and uh these people are lucky to be here with me, or whatever you're thinking that makes you feel that. But I always feel like, geez, these people could be anywhere, and they're here with me. You know, then this better be it's better be good.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Yeah, I love that. So far too long I've been fearing the shadows running from the wind. Feeling like I'm bound to lose.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

Uh what, you know, life is like at 70, uh, do you think if you told your 25-year-old self that the most exciting chapter of your life would be at 70, uh, your 25-year-old self would believe you?

SPEAKER_03 56:58

Great question, John. You know what? I don't know, I don't think so. Uh and and I told people when I turned 70, John, I said at my party, I said, I just want to tell you this because nobody told me. My mother told me, she would quote the Bible verse that said, the end of your days can be better than the beginning. And it and you know what? For for me, it's true, John. And I I'm like, you know what? My 60s were my favorite 10 years of my life.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

And so, but no, at 25, I knew everything. Yeah. And so, you know, you can't tell me anything. And so, no, that I wouldn't have believed it, probably. Uh, I would I had all this angst about why it wasn't happening now and stuff. And yeah, you know what, it wasn't time for it to happen then, John. It was, it's time. It's apparently it's time now for however long that lasts, you know.

SPEAKER_04 57:44

That's that's good perspective. So it sounds like you know, if I had to sum up what you're saying, it's like uh the first half of our life we spend learning our craft, and the second half of our life uh we learn ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Wow, that's that's that's extremely well said, John. It's very, very well said. And uh uh and so here's the thing is that you know what, there's a statistic out there. I worked for Gallup, the Gallup Organization for years, and they've been asking the same question now for oh gosh, you know, 35 years. At work, I get to do what I do best every day. And and for 35 years, only one person in five has answered yes to that question. It's a self-reported question, John. How can that be? That 80% of people say, no, I'm just doing stuff every day. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

And the second part of that story is I'm standing one day when I was working for Gallup, I was standing outside a meeting room, and and Don Clifton, the grandfather of positive psychology, the inventor of the strengths finder, he was like 80 years old, so he was an amazing guy. Well, everybody was waiting to go in, and I guess somebody said, Hey, there's not enough seats or something. And all of a sudden, everybody went in and left me and him standing in the lobby by ourselves. I said, Hey, Don, look at here. I said, you know what? I said, it's just you and me. I said, so why don't you tell me the most profound thing you can tell me in two minutes?

SPEAKER_04 59:14

That's balls in the city.

SPEAKER_03 59:15

And you know what he said, Don? He held up his index finger and he said, Dennis, every single person on the planet can do at least one thing better than 10,000 other people. He goes, every single person, the guy sleeping in his car, the guy who parks your car, the guy who feeds your sir sweeps the floors, they can all do at least one thing better than 10,000 other people. He goes, but that's the good news. He goes, the bad news is most people don't have any idea what that one thing is. And those two stories are related, John, is that people don't take the time to say, to, to stop long enough, especially now with phones and all the distractions. You know, the average knowledge worker in the United States is interrupted every 11 minutes by some form of communication. And by the way, that statistic is 12 years old. It's probably worse now. So when do we take the time to be introspective and say, what was that? I just what was that songwriting thing I just touched? That wow, that's like the third rail. Let me go back to that. You know, uh, most people don't know what that one thing is, and when you find it, it's cool. You know, it's like you you you can't not do it. That's a double negative. But you know, and so um anyway, that's uh that's that's why. And it's it's like, you know, people, the second half of your life, if you take the first half and you can become if you're self-aware enough to go, oh, well, this is something I need to be doing, then the second half is you get to do it if you want to. And it doesn't matter what form it is, I don't care if anybody shows up on Saturday night or not. If three people show up, the the people who put these on always apologize and go, well, we don't know, we don't know who's coming. I I don't care. I'm gonna do the same thing for those three people as I'm gonna do for 50. And then, you know, and then we get there and there's always there's always a house full of people, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

So I love it. Yeah. Dennis, thanks for taking time today, man. I I appreciate you. It's good to hear your story and and your wisdom. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:16

Thank you for having me, John. It's been great. You ask great questions, brother.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

What where can people go to find out about you, hear your music, book a show, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

Yeah, so Dennis Welchmusic.com is where uh is uh even though I'm terrible at keeping up, keeping it caught up, but uh but but I'm gonna do after this show, I'm gonna get my grandson to help me help me catch it up because I people might actually go there. Um and then the music is everywhere, you know. That's the cool thing. A lot of people complain, well, you know, it's not like it was when we sold LPs. Well, no, it's not because my record company pushes a button and my song, my music goes everywhere in the world. Is it better than that? And so it's on all the streaming services, Apple Music, Spotify, all that stuff. Um, and it's on YouTube. You can find everything there. And uh, you know, um, and if you want to book a gig, just you can when you come to DennisWelchmusic.com, you can it gives you a chance to to send me a note. And if you send me a note, I promise I'll read it and I'll be thrilled that you did that and we'll respond.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

Love it. Thanks, Dennis.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

Thank you, John. Have a good day. Thanks for having me on, brother. I appreciate it. Peace. Hope to see you again sometime.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

Oh, yeah, I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Let me live, let me live, let me live.