Ep 36: A Conversation with Kelly Rutledge

In this episode, John chats with guest Kelly Rutledge. Kelly is the founder of Madcap Records, an independent record label based in Nevada City, California. Madcap operates out of Ancient Waves Studio and distributes music through Sony's distribution network to major digital platforms.

Kelly is a former major-label A&R executive and producer who worked with Virgin, Capitol, Motown, The Village Studios.

John and Kelly talk about what an A&R rep looks for in a musician, the soul of a musician, why community is important, advice for musicians from a studio perspective, when labels get it wrong, and the future of music with labels.

https://www.madcapmusicgroup.com/

https://www.instagram.com/madcaprecords/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to the Gig to Live Podcast. Welcome everyone. I'm John Foles and I'm a full-time working musician. This podcast is about building a music life that holds up over time. It's practical, enjoyable, sometimes uncomfortable, but it's always about helping you stay in the game and actually enjoy the life that you're building. We'll meet some wonderful working musicians from time to time. So whether you're just getting started or you've been doing this for years, you're in the right spot. This podcast is for you. Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the show. Today we have a special guest in the studio. We have Kelly Rutledge with us. Kelly is the founder of Madcap Records, which is an independent record label that's based in Nevada City, California. Madcap operates currently out of Ancient Wave Studio. It distributes music through Sony's distribution network to major digital platforms. I'm going to let her brag on Madcap a bit today. Kelly is a former major label, AR exec, and producer who worked with Virgin Capital, Motown, the Village Studios in LA. I met Kelly when she was booking music for a venue that I've become a regular player at. And we had a fun first meeting that turned into a friendship. And uh I've been excited to watch Kelly get Madcap up and running from the sidelines. And I think she has some great perspective to offer musicians, and I am happy to have her on the show today. So, Kelly, welcome. Yay.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

John, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. Hey, why don't you start by just, you know, tell our audience a bit about who you are, how you got your start in music, and what those first few years in the music biz looked like.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

Yeah. Um, well, let's see. So uh I grew up a little outside of LA. Um I I was gonna go into art school, I had a scholarship and everything, but every time I listen to music, I always wanted to take a certain part and move it somewhere. And uh friend heard me talking, and he's like, you know, there's a program for that. So I completely hit the brakes, went to audio school, just fell in love with the idea of um recording and producing and being able to sort of design a song um from a visual and you know, audio um um place. But uh what I what I really loved about it was all my friends were musicians. I loved songs, and my favorite part was just finding a new artist, a new song, whether it was a friend or someone I heard playing on the street, and you know, developing them into something. I could always just kind of see the end result of an artist from um, you know, and I didn't know that was a job, right? So um I got uh I actually met someone at the airport. Um, funny enough, um I got hired at the village studios when I was pretty young, um, when I was in audio school and eventually went there and started working full-time as a studio runner. Um, the village is, you know, it's kind of the Abbey Road of Um of the States down in LA. It's it's a huge studio. Um, so I worked alongside major artists, very, very um big producers, old school producers, um, and I learned recording kind of backwards. Like I learned on physical outboard gear um before even having the money to have like Pro Tools at my house. You know what I mean? Usually it's kind of the other way around. So um I was like, oh wow, there's it's like a digital version of the Fairchild. Interesting, you know. So um I learned Signal Flow. I um I was, you know, I had a couple friends that were mentors um there and kind of helped me along. You know, they were all Berkeley graduates, so I was really um, you know, I I think that helped a lot though, being so new and naive, it allowed me to not have the ego. So I asked all the questions. I would stay late, I would shadow people, and I wasn't there trying to be like, I know everything, right? So I really was able to absorb a lot. Um, and it was very, I mean, there was like T-Bone Brunette recording on tape machines, you know. There was wow, you know, big, you know, I worked like DJ Quick, hip-hop sessions. I mean, it was it was a very wide array of things. Um, but uh yeah, then I threw a music festival in my hometown um in an abandoned borders bookstore. So I became a talent buyer with a crazy budget and no rules and just transformed. I mean, it was pretty impressive. I was in, it was the I was I was the most proud of something because we really did it from the ground up, a couple friends and I. Um, and uh that's when I started getting involved in the other side of the music business, um, which is very different being a talent buyer and a recording engineer, right? Um, but so I met that's when I kind of met different people. Um, a lot of the artists that I um in that town started having me produce them. Um, you know, I working as a studio engineer is great, but it's also um it's not as like you're kind of when it's a big studio, you're sort of just like the tech guy or girl, you know. And um I I loved the again the creative aspect, right? So um, you know, making records, producing records, even if I wasn't a full-on musician myself, it was um, I think somehow there's a something about being able to have a perspective with somebody instead of just play the guitar for them on the track, you know. Um anyway, so I got hired by Ron Fair, um, very old school producer, AR guy, you know, signed Christina Aguilera, black eyed peas, very scary individual, actually. Um, but I uh like intimidating, intimidating. All the guys at the studio were like, Ron, sorry, could probably should cuss, uh, fair. And I'm like, he's like the most um, they were always terrified of him because he would be in the studio as this big executive, but he could also run pro tools like faster than anyone. And he like would run and he had like three cell phones and five assistants and just like never smiled. And um, but he he really took me under his wing. Um, and I, you know, I, you know, I was hired as a AR coordinator and scout, but then being an engineer, I started he had me as his um like uh producer assistant. So I was in the studio every day. When he left, I took over his studio, so I was um capital like uh staff, staff studio producer and engineer. Um, and you know, AR was great. You know, I again didn't think that was a job. My job was literally to go to shows, discover talent, discover great songs, oversee the record, choose the mixer, choose the mastering engineer, um, help, you know, navigate them throughout this corporate building. Um and it was, you know, it was great. It was a job that, you know, not a lot of people get, and I'm very grateful for it. Um, but it's it's also a very well-rounded job because you work in a lot of different departments as an AR executive. Um, and I work, you know, um some people, you know, that there's records that, you know, you just see them, you know, they would get signed, and you know, you would see them kind of not, you know, the there's only so many spots at a major label, right? So some of them, you know, maybe it wasn't the best thing for them to be signed, you know, in the end, right? Um, but then there were others where, you know, you pick them up when they're already moving. Like I signed Maggie Rogers, she became a very big artist. She won, I believe, artist of the year at the Grammys. Um, but yeah, I left to be a uh writer-producer full-time when uh AR became just signing numbers instead of developing artists. Lived in Nashville, lived in London, um, came back, and basically Madcap to me is I've always wanted to do this. I I wanted to do it maybe in London, maybe in LA. Um, I just thought if you bring the studio aspect, the songwriting aspect, the developing aspect, and then you make the recording contracts, like you're not signing your life away, right? You can just sort of develop the songs, develop the artists and launch them. So, you know, that's what Madcap is. It's basically bringing in all these elements that are maybe unreachable for a lot of artists and um giving them that opportunity and also helping, you know, helping them figure out like that there's, you know, you can write with other people, you know, you can collaborate with other people. Um the idea is not just being a record label, it's like creating a collective in a hub, you know. Um, so yeah, and it's actually Nevada City. I came up here to not do music for a minute, you know. And then just seeing it like all the time, I was like, what is this fucking place? Like these people are amazing, and like no one's no one knows like what's happening. So um it really was, I feel like the stars aligned with everything. Um, and I'm having a lot of great feedback from everyone, and it's moving really fast and it's going really well.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So um that's so fun. So Madcap sounds like it's it's like an incubator in a launch pad, basically. Yeah, I think that's that's super fun. And you're right, there is insane talent in Nevada City. It's insane.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Yourself included. I guess I should mention I started um uh one of the um business owners asked me randomly too. I was like, did he know I was built, like I built, I wrote this whole business plan, right? At my house one day. I saw I had a dream, saw the whole thing, wrote the business plan. And um the owner of Friar Tex, like a couple days later was like, Hey, would you want to take over the music here and book all the music? Um and I'm like, what? Like, like it was the weirdest timing. It was insane. So booking the music, um, you know, being like a small town talent buyer was actually totally folded into everything I was already, you know. So again, stars aligning, but that's how I met some great people, including yourself. So and again, there were a lot of people that didn't have they weren't playing around because there's only so many spots. So I'm like, out with the old, let's give some new people a chance and and make a rotation that's flexible, you know?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Wow, am I rambling? That's awesome. No, you're not rambling. This is all good. This is all good stuff. So uh, so when you see an artist, you know, playing in the wild as you did all around Nevada City, what are some of the things that catch your attention and make you think, man, this this person has really got something?

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Yeah. Um, you know, whether it's it, you know, of course it's different for playing you know, background music at a restaurant or signing to a madcap, right? But but for me it's it's finding it's not necessarily technical perfection, you know what I mean? It's um it's something there's there's something unique, you know what I mean? Like you don't want I don't want, I guess I should say, um, to see like you don't want you don't want to sound just like perfectly, you know, you wanna be able to sense that um like there's something different, there's something unique because there's so many artists, it's like you have to have like what what's the handle to each cup? What makes this like different, you know? And and sometimes maybe they fucking suck at guitar, but like, you know, they have this like spark to like how they how they perform, or like their voice kind of sucks, but like it works in like this, you know. Um, I would say it's just it's it's when you can kind of hear or see the soul coming out. It I don't know, maybe that sounds hippie'd out, but like you know, you can just kind of feel like you can you can't you can't not notice them, you know what I mean? Um like with you, the way that you just engage, right? Like some people just play and you just kind of you you bounce off the room and the people in it, and you know, you play the songs in a way that you it's like you're not just going like start to finish song next, you know? It's like you have like a spark that comes out, right? Um yeah, I would say that's the it's something something different, and it's not necessarily something you can uh I don't know, learn. Maybe maybe you have to learn like how to not like try to like edit yourself so much or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Well, thanks for the kudos. I mean that was sweet of you to say, and and I think that's one of the things that we talk about on this podcast is uh trying to get past the idea of I have to be perfect or I have to emulate a certain artist or whatever the case may be, and just yeah, be out there and be your frickin' self and be real, let people see that you're human and fall in love with you, and that's good enough.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah, no, I mean it's it's definitely a guy, I just got the chills because it's it's um people respond to honesty, you know what I mean? Like when you're writing a song, I mean, I also I write songs for people, you know, it's like like or I sign songs or edit, you know, it's like you like if you're trying to write a song, and believe me, I fucking tried to do it, but it's like if you're writing a song where you're trying to write what you think they want to hear, or you're writing a song like from a perspective like me, like losing both of my fucking parents and being all alone and all that, you know, it's like and you write those emotions, people respond to that. I remember being in like fucking rooms in Nashville publishers being like, that's the one you like, like that, you know, that voice recording, like what? You know, it's like, but but it's when you allow, which is hard to do. It is hard to do, but when you allow yourself to come out without editing it so much, I think people that's when people like me notice, but also, you know, that's like even people, you know, just walking around, if you're buskying or in a restaurant and you're playing, it's like they see that there's something that you have to say, you know, even if you're playing a cover, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, yeah, for sure. When if a person feels like they have a hit song, and and I'm saying from a standpoint of uh like they feel like it's raw and honest, and they feel like, man, this says something in a way, and nobody else is saying this. You know, they're checking all the boxes and they say, This is a hit song. Everybody else tells them a hit song, you know, not just their you know, peers, not just their friends, their mom, you know. It's uh but they talk to people like you or uh uh whatever label and they get turned down. What do you tell them? What should they do?

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Well, first of all, labels historically are wrong all the time, you know. Can't always have ARs like me, right? But um, but no, and I mean, especially with labels, you know, I I'm not gonna lean into this so much, but it's like a lot of times, you know, they're responding to bosses that you know what I mean, maybe they fucking love it, but it's like they can't sign that kind of a so a lot of times it doesn't have to do, you know, but they're almost every big artist has been turned down by every major label. You know, it's kind of like this like it's it's like getting a striped like kind of in a way, you know. Um I wouldn't say I would aim for that, but it's it's it's a thing, you know. I mean, people are people tend to be wrong. And I think um if you don't believe in the music, then who else will? You know what I mean? Um and and the and the goal, especially now, should never be getting signed. Like, I mean, that should be, you know, like like you want to go, you want to work with someone uh, you know, like you know, if you're talking about major labels, like you want to get into that building when you've already built something yourself, so they just take you to the next level. Um, because a lot of times you can get lost in the mix and and um so I think, you know, I think you just have to keep working at it. Uh, you know, I don't think you should, I guess how do I say because I'm like, yeah, you know, you should take the editor away. But I mean, it's it's you know, if you think it's a hit, if you believe in the song, then that's really all that matters, and you should just, you know, just keep going without it. And then, you know, if if people, if you know, companies are saying, yeah, it's not good enough, um, you know, who cares? Then make the song big on your own, you know, and prove them wrong, you know. I don't know. I feel like that's how I've accomplished everything. I'm gonna fucking prove you wrong, you know. I don't know that's good.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Is that the kind of is that what you mean though, like major labels, or you mean just like Yeah, I think uh I I think that's a good word, especially, you know, hearing that you know people have been turned out, uh turned down before, and that's just kind of a a notch in your belt. That's kind of uh, you know, something to say. That's okay. Everybody gets turned down, keep moving on. But I think I I think a lot of us have grown up with this um you know, put the uh put the American idols and voices aside, those things. We've grown up watching movies like That Thing You Do, where all of a sudden I love that movie. I love it so much. It's our family movie. But you know, I mean, here's uh a group of kids, they write a hit song, a guy says, uh, would you step into my camper? You know, and and then signs a contract with them, gets her song on the radio, they start playing major circuits, you know, and next thing you know, Liv Tyler's running down the street and screaming her head off and telling everybody the song's on the radio. We've we've seen those things, and I think we secretly hope that that actually happens.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Well, first of all, one of my artists, Nate Vallejo, um and I he we always because like because you know that movie, remember they have that song and it's like not a hit yet, right? And then I think it's the drummer that's like you need to speed it up, and then it'll be remember, and then they speed the song up and it becomes this fucking huge record. And um this song I was working on with Nate last year, I'm like, dude, it's too fucking slow. And he's like, Are you trying to that thing you do me? Like, you know what I mean? We're like joking on it. But the thing is is sometimes like you know, sometimes as the writer, you need another perspective where it's like, oh shit, you know, that's gonna make it translate. And I think that can be the job of a producer or a label exec, you know, is like helping, you know, that translate. Um, it's just funny you mentioned that movie, but um, but I mean that can happen, but I think it's um, God, what was I gonna say? It's you have to be, you have to do the work, you know what I mean? Like you have to be, which I think when you watch movies like that, or um did you ever see a thing called Love? That movie made me want to be a songwriter. You should watch it. It's like they go to Nashville and um it's about Nashville writers, it's an old school movie, but um, you play the bluebird, become a huge fucking songwriter, right? And for all the hit country artists, but I think it's like, you know, you you wanna we all wanna be able to assume that there's gonna be that magic ticket one day and someone's gonna discover you. And I mean, I myself I've always felt that way, you know, but I think I think it's, you know, when that happens, it's like you do you do all this is probably everything in life, but it's like you do all that work ahead of it. And to other people, it looks like, you know, uh like Sabrina Carpenter. Like, I used to get fucking demos as an AR back in the day, like her from her as a writer, and it she was just kind of like this like sort of side, you know, like she was at it forever. And then now she's like this huge thing. But it's like someone that didn't know that would see her and think, like, yeah, she just all of a sudden, you know, I guess. Do you get what I'm saying? It's like there's all that work that goes into like getting to that point. Um, but honestly, a lot of it is luck. Like I had a I can't lie, I had a lot of lucky breaks, you know what I mean, in my career. Um so that is part of it, but it's like you have to be, you know, luck's when like you've done all the work to get there, and then finally, you know, it's like it's never hardly ever is just like out of nowhere, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Um I think I know the answer to this, but but maybe not. I want it's so what about the person who feels like they have been like this they have done nothing but sweat? They have worked, they have worked for years, uh, they've sat with label execs, they've played the bluebird, whatever the case is, and they just feel invisible. What do you what do you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Um I mean, a lot of people feel invisible, especially as artists. So I would first say you're not alone. But um, you know, I would say uh obviously keep trying, but also try sometimes try something different, you know what I mean? Like maybe try bringing like try work, try writing with someone else. Try, you know, bringing in a duet, try like take, you know, throw a fucking hip-hop beat under your guitar song, you know, just just try because sometimes, you know, you don't wanna you don't wanna just keep like you wanna keep at it, but you wanna also keep growing at it, right? So it's like you wanna like if if the same thing always isn't working, it's like it doesn't mean that you're not working, it just means you're not translating like the tempo in that thing you do. You know what I mean? Like little. There can be just, I think it's important for people to write with other people, work with other producers. Just try, try different um angles of what you're trying to do, you know, um, and take direction, you know. I feel like a lot of times it's people that are like, oh, like they don't like the feedback or they don't, you know. Um, I think being willing to to grow. Like Nate Vallejo again, a lot of his friends lately, they're like telling me that he doesn't usually like he's never been someone to take direction or take, you know, work collapse. And I'm like, really? I was like, he's like, we're always, you know, but I think maybe that's why it's different with some people at a certain point because they're willing to like move and grow. And I I feel like all the artists on Mad Cap, I'm not like, it's not about like telling them what to do, but it's like they're they want, they want to succeed, and that means like they're not always right. And there have been artists that which also means I'm not always right, don't get me wrong. I just mean, you know, you can't be so stubborn if you really want to succeed. You got to take, you know, or try things, you know. And and there's been artists where they're just like in the very beginning, they're like, yeah, I'm not. And I'm like, well, I just don't even want like what's what's the point then, you know? So I think just try to be like, you know, somewhat malleable, malleable, um, with you know, I I just don't think you should ever, because you should never stop, you know, and think that you just fucking suck and it's never gonna happen. I think just if you feel like you just keep hitting a wall, then try to, you know, move it a bit, like try to, you know, try different angles, try different hammer or something, you know. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, it does. I think that's insightful. That's smart. Um, changing it up. That that's that's good, good advice. So you've worked so many different angles of the music business. Uh what is it that you think that, you know, venue owners and talent buyers, promoters, labels, industry people, wherever they work, what do you think they all wish that musicians understood? Because I think musicians are always looking at we have a tendency anyway to look at everybody else. There's us and them, you know, but they have opinions about musicians. What do they want us to know?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Um well, all of those people that you're talking, I mean, they're they all they're all different. I guess it's I guess it's not I guess as a whole, it's not just like, how is this, you know, how can you help me? It's like, how can I help you, right? Like, you know, as like a venue owner in a small town, it's like, what are you, you know, it's not just like let me play. It's like, you know, you have to see your role in what it is that they want, you know. Um, like, are you trying to have nice ambiance in there, you know what I mean? Or like with a publisher, it's like they need someone that can, you know, or if they're signing as a producer, they need someone that can, you know, it's just it's how like, you know, write lyrics. You know, I did like a like American lyricism when I was in London because there's a weird disconnect with British music and in the um states. And, you know, it's like how like find, you know, but it's always how can you help them? Like it's not just like a one way. And I think a lot of times as artists, it's hard to see that, you know, like even record companies, they all answer to someone, you know, even small ones like myself, it's like, you know, I only have so much money, right, to spend on different things. So it's like how it's not that, you know, it's not that I don't want to necessarily work with everybody, but it's like, how can I make that make sense? You know, and sometimes that sucks. But like even as an artist, you're your own business person, right? It's like if this one fucking wedding is gonna pay me $1,200 and this little bar is gonna pay me $100, it's like it's nothing personal about the bar, but I'm gonna take the $1,200 gig, you know? Yeah, and that goes both ways. Do you know what I'm saying? Um, trying to trying to have some perspective of it, which can be hard when it's so personal, like like your own music, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you just touched on something important too, you know, about it um musicians having to look at themselves as a business, and we we talk about that a lot on this podcast. What do you think that every independent musician should know before spending their $1,200 from the wedding or their hundred dollars from the bar? What should they know before they spend money on recording or promotion or marketing? What do they need to know?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah. Um I mean, I guess it it depends on the you know, uh it's you know, there's a lot of different answers to the different things it within that, but I think it's you know, like, don't just spend money mastering a shitty fucking song that's not there yet. You know what I mean? Like, or like I've seen a lot of independent artists around here, it's like they're they're throwing money at marketing on something that like, is that the right song? Like, is that you know what I mean? I think it's like it's seeing when it comes to recording, I I won't go into the studio and start, you know, running that um ch-ching in in the in the big analog studio, the Trident console. It's a big, you know, it's a lot going into that. And um, you know, until the song is ready, you know what I mean? I think it's really important to I've seen a lot of artists, friends, like like they just rush it, you know, they just want to like rush through the thing. And I'm just like, dude, like it's the most important. Like, I can find a hit song on a fucking voice recording with like a dog barking in the background, you know what I mean? It's like I could hear that, right? But I think a lot of artists, like, they just feel like they want to do the next step because it's the next thing you do. And that's where I've seen a lot of um, you know, artists like waste money in a recording studio. Like I a girlfriend of mine, I mean, like great songs, great demos. And then she records, like, you know, in a in the studio with some band and some fucking producer, you know, and uh and then sends me, you know, some producer, you know what I mean? Okay, and then sends me the the music being like, oh, it's great. And it's like, yeah, you've got like a drummer, guitar, bass, like fucking tambourine, but it's like, what is it? The whole song's lost, you know?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

And you just spend all this money for no reason just because you thought it was the next thing to do, you know. And some songs don't need tambourine in a big studio, some songs just need, you know, a really good vocal take and one little beat. And like, you know what I mean? It's like, and so I think it's important to not, I personally, which is funny as someone that offers, you know, is an engineer offers, you know, people to record. But I mean, I just think it's important to not just rush into recording and make sure you know you have a plan, you know, and also not be spending money, like, you know, there's so especially now, there's so much music everywhere. It's like, don't just release something just to release something. I mean, sure, maybe if it does something for you, like spiritually, but it's like if you're trying to like make a you know, business out of it, really, it's like have a plan like with like how you're gonna release things, when you're gonna release them, what else are you releasing with it? Like what's what's like what's the story behind it? I mean, I think with music and artists, it's been like this forever. Um, but it's like you want to create a culture around your music, right? You don't want to just like it needs to be like John Boltz and his like the fucking scene around John Boltz, you know, like the John Boltz experience, you know? But it's like who's like who's in your circle? Who's like like how do you just know it's it's like just a feeling you get around that artist and their music? And that's how people are gonna continue to buy your tickets and go to your shows and buy your fucking vinyl even when they don't have a record player, and you know what I mean? Because they feel like part of your story. And I think um I think artists just really, especially with the studio. I mean, I've even I've even thrown out records out after having everyone in the room and the whole, yeah. And I'm like, and I spent the money in the business, and I'm looking at it and I'm like, the songs got lost, like it's gone. Like, I don't know what happened, but it's not there, and I don't care. I'm throwing it out or doing it again in a different way because like you know, sometimes it doesn't need everything and it doesn't, you know what I mean? Sometimes I need to do the vocal in my fucking apartment instead because the artist is too nervous in the studio, you know what I mean? It's like yeah, there's ways that you need to, I think, just don't just do the next step just because you think it's the next step, you know. Maybe the song, the lyric's not right, you know. It's like spend spend the time to have an idea on the whole picture of everything, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Wow. Thanks for your perspective on that. I think that there's it seems like there's a little bit left over from the CD listening generation, too, where it may maybe it did make more sense to get into the studio and just get it all down. So you at one point, so you had your CD to offer at your live gig or something, but the world has changed. It's like I don't like I don't go to gigs where they're actively selling their CDs. I mean, barely. I go where they're giving them away for free because they've got a thousand left in their garage. Um, but and vinyl, of course, has made a big comeback, but even then, people, I don't know, it's just all changed. And it seems like you have been ahead of the curve with that because it seems from what I've read and what I've learned talking to other artists too, is that you put a lot more attention on singles at Madcap or like the song than you would thinking about a concept album.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Yeah, I love what you said about CDs. That's totally what I just as an AR getting like demos like fucking frisbeat at my neck all the time. It's like, but it's it's like, where is the recording of it? And I do it is important to record, don't get me wrong. I'm a fucking studio person, I love it, but it's it's a matter of not rushing into just doing it just so it's done because no one cares. You got to make sure you build the whole thing and then spend the money on it, right? Um, yeah but yeah, um, yeah, so I've always been a song person, you know, um, which was funny working at record companies, like I never paid for music, right? But then at record companies, I still never paid for music, right? You know, but no, but like, you know, like lime wire, just downloading, you know what I mean? I grew up from that, and it wasn't about not um, obviously I believe in paying for music, but I guess what I mean by that is more um the song, like I would buy CDs at Tower Records, and I would buy them just for a song on them, right? And if the song didn't catch me, you know, as a kid, this is how I did it every time. You know, you spend the money on the whole CD, and then it's like I would flip through it. And if the song didn't get me within 30 seconds, I would go to the next song. And I was always like that. And um, so even as a little kid, I was like kind of like a little AR being like, nah, it's not catching me and moving on, you know. But it's like it's also maybe an ADD thing. I don't know. But it's what it comes down to is that I love songs, and for me, the song is the most important part. And even making albums at record companies, like they're, you know, there's singles on that that you work. And then there's the, and so for me, I just feel like now, you know, build like song by song, right? So, but what it also does for me, you know, not just feeling my song is the most important part fetish or whatever, but it's that um I'm able to, you know, if in we're not spending like we're not locking you down for a whole album and we're spending all the money on all of these songs and the whole campaign of it. It's like instead, like, no, let's do like a song at a time, see how it responds to the market, see what happens, and then do the next one. Not a matter of just like, oh, we made a whole EP and we're releasing single by single strategically, which is great and still something I do. But I think I like the idea of like, you know, I mean, and it especially let me say it started in Nevada City because I was seeing all these artists performing. And when I would hear the original songs, it's like, oh, that that I love that song, that one song. I wish I could sign and produce that song. Maybe not all of the ones that they performed, but that that one, right? So then I was like, man, if I just had a studio and like a little dish, I was like, I could just like I could pick John in that one song, like, you know, someone else in this other song, and this, and then I could just have this like cool catalog of all the best songs in Nevada City. So um, and then also it's like you're not like, oh my God, I'm signing all of my songs to you, right? Forever. It's like I can sign that one song, record it, produce it, market it, um, and then, and then maybe, you know, another, a bigger company or another like something bigger notices you from that one great song, and then you get to launch into a different sort of dimension of your career from it, you know. Um that's the idea behind it's like it's it's finding, you know, just working on the best song as someone that thinks that what you know, song by song is very important, and then building through that because all you know, I think that it's about not locking people down and also not locking the company Madcap down, right? It's like I can I can work with more artists um if I do it that way, right? Like if I'm trying to do like big contracts, big albums for each artist, like I'm like, how many people can I really work with in one year, right? But this way I'm like, I can work like, you know, I mean, my plan is yeah, I'd be releasing like a single a week, you know, like and just have it just be this uh pipeline. And it's not saying you only get one song, but it's just working the one song each, you know. There's different, you know, because maybe we release John as a hip hop artist and we try to run it to hip hop radio and the radio and people are like, I don't know, this guy's not, you know what I mean? So then we're like, oh shit, maybe we need to, you know, adjust it. Like there's an opportunity to even do it that way, right? And then and then release you as, you know, a country artist instead. I mean, I'm not saying that's like the full plan around the single idea, but I'm just saying it's it gives you the opportunity to test a market. Um so uh yeah, so it's either it's a launching pad or it's also a way to put your toe in the water um and see, you know, see what happens. And then maybe like maybe you, John, maybe you fucking hate me, right? And you're like, God, thank God I only did one song with her. You know what I mean? Now I'm free. I'm free of the shackles of, you know, um, but it's it's really about, you know, it's an artist-friendly company, you know, um, because I'm also an artist, you know, I'm not a like singer, you know, musician, but you know, I'm I'm a writer-producer, and I like it's like I see the other side. And so I, you know, it's a company where we're we're helping each other. And I think by doing smaller contracts and single by single, it just um it helps everyone and also just gives every you know, I can work a bunch of songs at the same time, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Yeah, I love the model, it's so unique. I mean, it's it's great hearing these stories about it. When I watch your social media, which you do a stellar job of, by the way. I mean, uh just watching the videos, listening to people's stories, it's uh it's so unique and and interesting. And one thing that really uh stands out about Madcap to me is uh community. It really feels like a community first before it seems like a label. And I mean that in the best uh ways possible. You've you've worked in different cities, different countries. What do you think makes a music community healthy? Why is that happening where you're at now?

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Yeah, that's a I've never been asked that before. That's a good one. Um I mean I guess I guess for me, from my perspective, what I noticed about um, you know, it's there's a the it's the audience, like it's the passion and love coming from the audience. Like the people here love music. I mean, everybody loves music. It's never gonna change. It's been since the ages of time, you know. Um, but it's it's when you have like people are like they really want to go to the shows and they want to see the art, like it's just a really passionate, enthusiastic community in that way. Um, which is one, and then I think it's I think, you know, I mean, from my perspective, I came in here and saw there was all this talent that nobody seemed to know what, like no one was doing any, like no one knew there was no infrastructure to support, support it in a professional way, you know what I mean? Like like, so from my perspective, I was like, oh my gosh, there's just there's such great talent and nobody knows what to do with it. So I can be of service in that way, right? Um, but I think in in general, music community, uh, you know, I really don't know how to answer this perfectly, but like what came to mind when you were saying that was like, I think about like when I was in London, you know, it's very much, which is great, but it was like, it's like I was writing like hip hop records every day. Like that's like it's very like go, go, go, go, go. Um, where's the hit song? You know, um, and same, you know, I think that's its own market, but I feel like, you know, I I think it's about like when people have a respect for music itself as an art rather than you know, they see it as a business, but it's also like there's a heart in it, you know. Um and I think finding a scene that you know, there there is heart in it everywhere, but finding a a community that um, you know, is sort of untainted, where it's not so much like how can I be famous vibes, it's more like like, you know, the heart of music, you know. Um and I think that's why like Nashville became what Nashville is, because it was this just like thick community of just so much heart into like the songs itself, you know, and the writing and the like just the heartbreak of it and and the musicianship. And of course now Nashville is like, you know, but there still is like I, you know, the best songwriters in the world there, you know, there still is that heart. And I think it can be lost when you mix things like like in LA, you know, there's so much of the like how can I be famous vibes that um it's harder to to find the the heart in there, you know, it's obviously still there, but um I think a music community to me is is when um there's a like a genuine love for music in the way of just not just who's who's cool, but like, you know, people in Avata City, like they want to go, they want to uh, you know, they'll go to like the concert, the free show, the whatever, just because they love the music. They love dance. It's not about like, I don't know, it's not God, I don't know how to say it really, but it's just it's like it's like an untainted um love that you just you just feel. Um and you know, I think with Nevada City, I think there's a lot, you know, perhaps there's perhaps I need to find the people that take it, you know, super seriously, you know. Maybe not everybody does, and that's maybe what in some of these communities makes it like, you know, we're just playing to play, you know. Um, but within that, there are the people that are like, I'm just playing to play, but also like let's make it better, let's do something with it, let's like let's put it into the ether and not just keep it on the you know, side of the sidewalk forever, you know. It's like um Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah, it does. I appreciated uh something you said earlier. I want to go back to it. I I I don't want to just skip right past it. You actually said that you may be wrong sometimes, which is uh an interesting thing. I think for a musician, we look at people sometimes like producers and AR people and think, you know, they have the final say because they're they're perfect. But even though we intuitively know that's not the case. But what are can you talk to us about for you how you have been wrong about an artist in the past? What does that look like, you know?

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Yeah, I mean I I can't think of but there's been, you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

I think it's like a lot of it is sort of especially like when I was it was close to when I left, uh, you know, and it was a lot of it was, you know, capturing, you know, like ambulance chasing of like YouTube stars or whatever, and it's sort of like I guess TikTok stuff now, or you know, um I feel like I maybe was a bit like just kind of like old school about it and bitter in that way where I'm just like I could see like the artist wasn't great and sure I didn't think, you know. But then but then they become they become huge because they create a culture around it, right? And I think I've been wrong in in the case of I some of those where, you know, um I'm just I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm trying to think like specific artists, but you know, I don't know. Sometimes I mean a lot of times, you know, it's it's kind of when I've been really passionate about something and it just doesn't work, you know. Um but I would say like wrong, you know, in general, like, you know, like if I'm writing with someone, you know, and I see it a certain way, you know, it's like I there's been, you know, the lyric actually that I hate, and sometimes I'll still listen to the song and I'm like, I still don't like that lyric, you know. But it's like, but then people people love the song and it doesn't bother anyone else, you know, and and I can ruin something by like nitpicking it to pieces or you know, having demoitis, you know, where I just I hear the older version so much that I can't, you know, respect like the other the other version of it. Um but I mean I think as I think as an art, I feel like more so I I just when you say that, I just feel like musicians more feel like I feel like they would assume people like me are wrong all the time. I feel like that's more the thing. I feel like you guys mostly have the ego of like you don't fucking know, you know. I don't know. Well, yeah, no, I feel like that's more common than them thinking like, yeah, everything I say is true, you know. And um, so I'm like, I mean, I I don't wanna because a lot of times it's it's hard to get musicians to want to take critique and change things, you know. Um, I feel like that's more the problem. But um, but you know, it's I mean, you should though respect, I mean, ARs usually they're there for a reason, you know what I mean? Like they've they've they see a lot, like they have the perspective, but you know, not everybody can be right all the time. But I think you should respect people that have, you know, experience, you know, and uh in uh in different ways where like they've been trained and to hear things a certain way, or they they've been in those meetings hearing executives talk about the details of why things don't work, they've seen things not working. So I think it's it's important to pay attention to that criticism. But um, but yeah, I can't, I'm I mean, you know, I don't know. There's like I mean, I also I'm not gonna name names. You know what I mean? I'm just not, John. It's just not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah. Oh, I don't want you to name names.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

There are people that, you know, like that play in town that I just can't stand their voice. I don't like them like as performers, but I'll book them because everybody loves them, you know? And it's not that I don't like them like as people, but I'm like, I just like it's not, I just there's something about it that annoys me, you know. Um, but everybody loves them when I pro when I book them. So it's like, you know, just leave it. You know, I'll let people enjoy it, but I'm not gonna be like, well, I don't like the sound of that, so I'm not gonna, you know, like it's like, but that's also having a business perspective, you know what I mean? Um yeah, but I know I know that I'm not always right. Um, and you know, I've just there's been a lot of times when I just can't think of specific, um, specific artists, and I'm definitely not gonna name specific artists anyway, and be like, yeah, that person's fucking shit. But um, you know, or I hated them. But uh I don't know. I just yeah, I just think there's I think the best way to, you know, sort of answer that is that there's I've people that I, you know, or sometimes there's even, you know, people that I'll work with, you know, or sometimes there were even people that I tried to sign because I just knew everybody else was gonna fucking love it, even if I didn't, you know, and it was my job to sign hit records, you know. Um, but then there's been times when, you know, the ego gets in the way and then it they become hits, you know. And I'm like, whatever. I still don't, you know. I guess I'll say like I didn't love Skrillix. I'll put that out there. I was like, this is a fucking fad. And then it's like EDMs like everywhere, and I'm like, it's still a fucking fad. It's not gonna stay. Like, you know, that was one thing I was uh I mean, but my defense kind of went away a bit, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

So yeah, I mean I I feel that about certain artists for sure. I understand.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

He's an amazing producer, but I guess I just mean that whole like everybody thought that signing EDM was like everything had to be EDM and EDM was the future, and everything like you know, and I just I was like, I don't know, dude. I just feel like it's just like a thing happening right now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

I don't know, and I was I mean that was gone for wear a mask.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Yeah, yeah, like I was like, dude, this is just you know, I mean, because certain trends in music, good songs will never go away, but certain trends in music do become like you know, kind of a fad. But um, but that was one that was like, I was like, it was huge, and I was just sitting there like you know, um that was like a general one, I guess I could say. Nothing towards Skrillix, though, he's fucking talented, he's produced some of the best records ever. But like, you know, I just that he created a fucking thing, you know?

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, okay, so you created Madcap. It's kind of set apart from the labels you've worked with before. After after everything you've seen in the business working with multiple labels, now starting your own. What what gives you hope about the future of music labels in general? Or do you have hope for them?

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Um Well, I think for me, I mean, it's you know, doing it song by song, right? Is a big part of it. And doing it, you know, I think, you know, uh you could bring up sort of the AI thing and and whatever, and you know, you can have a song like written for you in an app and all of that, but there's already platforms that are getting like legally set in place to um to be able to picture what's fake and what's real, you know. Um and it's it's I think more than ever, I mean, the way that vinyl has become like the most lucrative product within an artist's, you know, repertoire, right? Um even though it's the oldest, but in the most high fidelity or whatever, right? But it's like I think that people are really gonna be they already are, but leaning into the re like real music, right? Like I that's why I'm I'm recording in a big analog studio with an analog console and oh shit. Oh my god. There's some worker guy in my patio. Um, sorry about that. Um yeah, so I think um, so I think people are gonna be leaning into real music, right? So uh instead of you know, recording analog, recording in a big, a big studio with real gear, having those room acoustics, um, having the songs mastered by a real mastering engineer, um, having high fidelity records is gonna become, I I just feel like I I see it being more. That's why everyone's leaning one way and I'm leaning the complete opposite. I'm like, actually, let's, you know, let's do it like the old school way, because I think it's just becoming more, it's gonna become more of what people want and people need and what people crave when there's so much fake music being created, right? So, you know, and doing um the immersive sound with Sony music, you know, I was in LA a few weeks ago, you know, it's Sony Pictures Law, we're in this room, you know, it's you know, there's Atmos, Dolby Atmos, which is, you know, it's like surround sound for films, really, right? But so Sony 360 is immersive audio created for music specifically. So it's music focused, and then it's like insane. I mean, there's 21 Gen Elex, three subs, like you're in a crazy, you know, so it puts you inside the song. And so for me, recording, recording an analog at a major studio, like getting the songs right, really producing the songs, developing the artist, then having, you know, epicenter mastering in London be like mastering the records with an analog chain, then going and mixing them in 360 uh with Sony's technology. It's like I just I'm leaning the other way because I think that's the only way to lean right now. Otherwise, let's just like not make music ever again, right? It's like there's so much fake music, people are gonna want the real music more than ever. Um so I think doing it differently that way, and then doing it song by song and finding, you know, doing the deals differently as well. Like each artist's contract, you know, is unique. It's like what works best for both of us for that artist, you know. Um not making them, I I think doing, you know, short, shorter, shorter contracts, it's like lower, lower investment from both sides, you know. I think that's really a big, a big game changer with the way that I'm doing things. Um, and then just incorporating the whole, like all sides of it, really, you know, um, like the publishing, the the label. Um, you know, I've got uh like a management, interim management side. I mean, having it be like to launch them, you know, I think, you know, people will people want an incubator, right? And so I'm able to just sort of launch all these different artists. And I think that that's different than being a big company or even being a small company doing big contracts. You know, you're putting all your eggs into one basket, and instead, you know, I'm distributing eggs to everyone, you know, and maybe, you know, making 50 cents each egg instead of like I'm spending a hundred dollars on this one basket, and if it doesn't sell, like I don't know, you know, I just you're a music farmer, right? Like all my chickens, we'll see, you know, which one's ready to, you know, hatch at different times. But yeah, but you know, it's it's I think that's you know, it's finding because for me, I love this, you know, and I know that people like you love this too, you know, and love love this the way that I'm doing it, right? So I knew if I I'm like, I gotta, I love developing records. I'm back in an old school studio. I'm not just you know making beats in a in a production room. It's like it's I love it. It's it's gorgeous and people love it, but it's also I'm a businesswoman and I know I had to figure out a way to make it make sense, right? So um, yeah, I'm excited to I just know I just know it's gonna work because it's it's just everybody wants it, everyone needs it, and I found a way to do it with very low, you know, overhead and being able to, you know, allow the artist to continue forward afterwards, you know. Um love it. I don't know, did I ramble?

SPEAKER_00 55:23

The guy walking, I'm kinda Kelly. It's been great to have you today. Um connecting while we're both in different parts of the country right now is super fun. I'm looking forward to seeing you, you know, towards the end of the year when we get back on the West Coast. For everybody listening, uh, if you're on Instagram, and I think most of you are, uh, then follow Madcap Records. That's the uh that's the handle there on Instagram. You can go to the website uh madcapmusicgroup.com and check out everything there. Super uh, you know, the the site is fun. You can read about the history, see everything that you're doing, photos of the uh studio, you know, just follow those videos, watch everything that's going on. It's it's really a story that's unfolding. And so, more than anything, today I I wanted to have you all meet Kelly, but also be introduced to the story because I think you're gonna want to keep following this one. So thanks, Kelly.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

Thanks, John.