Ep 25: A Conversation with Jason Keiser

Our guest today is Jason Keiser.

Jason is a California, San Francisco Bay Area guitarist, multi-instrumentalist, composer, and arranger known for blending jazz, bluegrass, old-time, and acoustic music traditions. 

In this conversation, Jason shares about the crossover of Jazz and Bluegrass, what an education doesn’t give you, the differences between playing solo and with a group, getting stiffed, why some people “don’t get” jazz, asking for what you’re worth, and what he thinks is the most important thing for a musician for longevity.

There are three pieces of music on this episode including one track, in its entirety, that has not yet been released. All songs used by permission and no copy should be made. If you like them, please purchase them here:

Gold Rush off the album, Grassology © 2024 Jason Keiser

Kind of Kenny from the album, Kind of Kenny © 2024 Jason Keiser

Hermoso Cariño © 2026 Jason Keiser (not yet released)

Originally from San Jose, California, he studied jazz at West Valley College before earning a degree in Bluegrass, Old-Time, & Country Music Studies from East Tennessee State University and later completing a Master of Music in Jazz Studies at San Jose State University. 

Jason performs throughout the Bay Area with jazz, classical, and acoustic ensembles, leads The New Acoustic Collective, and also works as a solo guitarist in a wide range of styles.

His recordings include Conversations with Jason (2017), The Axe Axis (2022), Shaw’s Groove (2023), and Kind of Kenny (2024), featuring interpretations of Kenny Wheeler’s music with an all-star chamber jazz ensemble. 

He has performed at venues including The Sound Room in Oakland, The Back Room in Berkeley, Cornerstone Berkeley, completed a six-week residency at The Biltmore Estate in Asheville, and appeared as an Official Showcase Artist at the International Bluegrass Music Association’s World of Bluegrass with The New Acoustic Collective. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You are listening to the Gig to Live Podcast. Welcome everyone. I'm John Folz and I'm a full-time working musician. This podcast is about building a music life that holds up over time. It's practical, enjoyable, sometimes uncomfortable, but it's always about helping you stay in the game and actually enjoy the life that you're building. We'll meet some wonderful working musicians from time to time. So whether you're just getting started or you've been doing this for years, you're in the right spot. This podcast is for you. Well, welcome everybody. Welcome to the podcast. As always, I am glad that you are here. I'm glad you take the time to listen. Today, we have a treat because I have a world-renowned musician with us in the studio today. We're going to be talking with Jason Kaiser. Jason is a Bay Area bass guitarist. He's a multi-instrumentalist. He's a composer. He's an arranger. He's known for blending jazz and bluegrass and old time and acoustic music traditions. He's originally from San Jose, California, which is a place I know well. We might talk about that. He studied jazz at West Valley College before earning his Bachelor of Arts in Bluegrass and Old Time and Country Music Studies from the East Tennessee State University. Graduated cum laude, that's with honors kids, in uh 2018. He later completed a Master of Music in Jazz Studies at San Jose State University in 2020, which I think maybe that's the first time I've ever said that sentence. Master of Music in Jazz Studies, which is fantastic. Jason has performed with a wide range of jazz, classical, and acoustic ensembles. He currently plays throughout the Bay Area, leading the jazz bluegrass string band, The New Acoustic Collective. He also plays with various jazz groups and he performs as a solo guitarist in many different styles. His recordings uh are vast. They include conversations with Jason from 2017, The Axe Axis in 22, Shaw's Groove in 23, Kind of Kenny 2024, which is uh featuring interpretations of famous musician Kenny Wheeler's music with an all-star chamber jazz ensemble. And uh Jason's currently working on releasing a new jazz trio album as well as a solo guitar album themed around the ranchera and mariachi music of Mexico, which I am thrilled about. That sounds amazing. He's performed at leading Bay Area Jazz venues, including the Sound Room in Oakland, Back Room in Berkeley. He's also performed this year at the Cornerstone Berkeley with the New Acoustic Collective. He's performed at leading Bay Area Jazz venues, did a six-week residency at the Biltmore Estate in Nashville. Uh he's appeared as an official showcased artist at the International Bluegrass Music Association's World of Bluegrass with the New Acoustic Collective, which is no small deal. I mean, Billy Strings was a showcase artist there before being a headliner. Now I know Jason from the New Acoustic Collective because I hired him a number of times at the restaurant we used to own, and Jason wowed me when they came to play. It was uh hard to put into words what I experienced the first time I saw them play. It was jazz, but it was bluegrass, and then it was also, I don't know, from outer space. It was just a soundscape that I couldn't describe sometimes, and it felt sometimes like it was a little experimental and uh not unlike that John Cage sort of a way. And I'll let you push back on that if you if you want to do that. But Jason can play circles around me. He knows how to play the guitar. I have been playing my whole life all over the world, but Jason plays on different planets, I'm pretty sure. He understands the intergalactic language and the feel of music. So please welcome Jason Kaiser. Oh man, I'm I'm glad you're here. It's it's it's good to see your face. I mean, I see your face. We're we're recording uh on video right now, although everybody's just listening.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Maybe maybe we can start by you. I mean, we heard your bio, which is super impressive. Why don't you tell us a little bit about growing up in San Jose and how this whole thing started for you?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, man. So um I mean, it's I don't know, like when I was growing up, I wasn't really like around a whole ton of music. My grandpa played um trombone, so actually that was the first instrument I got into. Uh, because he played in an elementary school, they they wanted us to play something. So started on trombone when I was really young, and it was just kind of weird. Um but you know how so is it weird? All of it was kind of straight for me as a kid, it was just like this long slide, and then you gotta empty the spit, and I was just like, man, I don't know if this is I was like, Grandpa, it's cool that you did it. I don't know if I like it, you know. But um fast forward many years, you know, when my older sister, who's actually only 10 months older than me, was in high school, um, she was getting into guitar, and so she had signed up for guitar lessons and and um and she kind of like you know finished it pretty quick. She didn't really stick with it. Um, but I was just interested. I was just like, oh, that's well, she's going to the guitar lesson, she's got this guitar, like what's going on with that? You know?

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

And um, so I just, you know, would like play around with it, and my nana had a guitar. And um so yeah, man, I just started just started kind of picking it up on my own and teaching myself until I was able to convince my parents basically that I was I was gonna stick with it, and then they joined, they had me, you know, do lessons. Um and then when I was, you know, at that point in high school, um there were there was a jazz band and it was an excuse to play guitar. So I joined. You know, I was just like, whatever, whatever gives me the opportunity to play more guitar, man. So from basically then till now it's just been like it never stopped, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Yeah. That's that's very cool. I used to spend my summers in San Jose a lot because my cousins live down there.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Oh, cool, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yeah, so I I mean I'm probably at least 10 years older than you. Um, but uh let's see, was Aloha Rollerland around when you were a kid? I don't think so. Okay, yeah, maybe I'm even that much older than you. Yeah, uh yeah, yeah. That's cool though. My cousins, I think my cousins went to Leland. Isn't that where you went to?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, dude, that's where I went to high school, man. That's wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah. Yeah, it's a small, it's a small world, man. Yeah, it is a trip. That's a it's a small world. It is, you know. And my uh Okay, so oh yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say, like, my folks, for many years we lived out in New Almaden, you know. We we lived on two acres and and uh we had chickens and goats, and that was kind of a cool landscape to that's kind of when I was getting more into guitar, and and then I started getting into bluegrass and was given a banjo. So I feel like being in that area kind of led me to some of these styles in some ways too, I think.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Yeah, yeah. Uh another piece of trivia, I bought my first guitar, my first acoustic at Guitar Showcase on the corner of Bascom Camden in San Jose.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, man. I teach I teach right near there.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

So that's so great.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

All right, so playing the trombone was weird. Yeah, you love the guitar. How do you how do you define a good gig these days? I mean, what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, man, so it's kind of like I don't know. I kind of one of my label mates and mentors kind of like had mentioned this at one point and I I agree with him. He was like it's kind of like a rule of three. Like there's three kind of like potentials that you kind of if you can get all three potentials checked off, maybe that's great. But it's kind of like, is the money good, obviously? You know? Or uh is the hang and like the the the vibe with the musicians, right? Is is the music you're making potentially if you're playing with other people, is that good? Right? Is that challenging you and is that challenging you in some way, or is is you know, um and then are there any other like kind of I guess maybe perks or you know something like that. But generally it's kind of like, do I get along with the musicians and is the music good? And then it's like obviously is the pay good. So if I if usually if I get two out of the three, you know, or if it's like I don't know, you know, if the money's really good but the music's not great, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like it just kind of just depends on the situation. Um but but at this point I'm always trying, always at least now and and in the last few years, probably since my master's, I've been trying to be more business oriented, right? So it's just making sure that like we're actually profiting, you know, and everyone and it depends on I guess it depends on the situation. Like when I'm leading my string band, which is a quintet, you know, it's kind of like trying to ensure hopefully that like everyone's everyone's walking with uh with something that's worthwhile, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting to hear you talk about that because you know, when I owned a venue in Folsom, California, uh and you know the venue. Uh we we at that time were paying more money than anybody on the street. And it was for a solo artist, it was great. When you told me you were gonna come play with your whole band, and I was like, oh man, I can't I can't play, I can't pay you anymore. No, of course. I just felt like you must have left those gigs thinking, oh my gosh, we drove all the way. I mean, it's like a three and a half hour drive, you know. Yeah, that's like you must have gone away.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, man. I've always, I don't know, like this kind of leads into probably one of your other questions, and I can maybe elaborate on it, but you know, potentially, but it's like I'm kind of of the opinion, and some of my mentors have told me this and encouraged me to think about it like this that as a musician to be successful, one, you have to wear a lot of hats, and two, you have to like in in some ways you have to create your own lane uh and create your own opportunity. So like the you know, I I looked at those gigs and I was very appreciative and grateful for them. Um, and although it was a long drive, man, like I kind of look at it like that's a new area for us to kind of sink our teeth into. That's you know what I mean. I'm always looking at like a different opportunity, and and I guess it maybe that's part of what I could have included in your original question too, is like working with great venues and people like you, man. It's like we need more people that care about the music and are just trying to support us in some way. And I think it's like if we feel that right, like when you feel supported at a gig or that that you know, in in that way, it I don't know, it makes you want to come back, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Well, man, I appreciate you saying those things, and I I know you're not just blowing smoke, and I think that's uh that's that's a very uh cool thing. Uh I'm glad you brought up the fact that you know to make a living doing music, to have longevity, um, you have you have to have some rules by which you live, you know, you have to operate as a business, but you also have the prerogative to say, I'm gonna bend my rule here because of this. And influence is is a good one. You know, get into a different area. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

And for us at the time, you know, um that was like that was kind of our first official iteration, man, because we've been through we've been through some different ones and recorded some different albums since then. That was also, and I still I still do it even now. I'm like, man, it's a it's a paid rehearsal. You know I I you know depending on the situation, right? I'm just like, guys, like this is an opportunity for us to to get some stuff together and and maybe there maybe there will be some food and it's it's a paid rehearsal, and maybe if we have merge, which we always do, right? So it's like you know, there's different ways to kind of like you know work around it a little bit depending on the situation.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Yeah, that's that's good perspective. Yeah. Now you speaking of wearing a bunch of different hats, like you mentioned, uh you live in what seems like different worlds musically a bit. I mean, if we're talking stereotypical kind of musician, we think jazz, we think, you know, uh uh nose in the air, long cigarette, you know, maybe maybe a beret. Yeah, I I I'm blowing it out of proportion, but you know, like the cartoon caricature of a jazz musician is that. And then if you think bluegrass, well now, you know, your bib overalls and no shirt and barefoot, you know, sitting on the porch. That's right. Like you live in those things. Yeah, exactly. Uh you live in those two worlds. How do those worlds talk to one another? Like, how do those worlds differ from one another or a crossover?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, it's interesting, man. Like I, you know, I obviously I had started obviously with jazz, and and and when I started getting into Bluegrass, it was like for me, I just like the first thing I noticed was that there were there were certain connection points, right? Like musically, they were two different styles, but you could improvise over both of them. You know what I mean? So and that was like the connection for me. So then, you know, as I started learning both styles more and and I'm still, right? Like that's like I feel like a lifelong thing. Um it's just, you know, I don't know, man. Like there were there were certain like I mean, connection connections, like being able to improvise over both styles was like a big like light bulb moment for me. Um, and then just like kind of getting into the you know, I talked to my my band about this, my students about this. I think about it a lot, the subtleties of style, like nuance between styles. And so it's like those kinds of things I think are are interesting. And um, I don't know where I'm leading with this, but you know, it's uh you might have to ask the question again. We might have to edit this out.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Yeah, no, no, no, no. I I hear what you're saying. We're just talking about kind of the the collaboration between the genres and and and I hear you saying that um being able to be innovative and um and kind of carve your own path in the moment is congruent with both of those genres.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Exactly. And it and when I play bluegrass, I kind of play bluegrass as a jazz musician, I guess. Like a lot, I think some folks may have some folks that may have more stuff worked, and there's certain things I maybe have worked up, right? Like to to add to the style or to add to the tune, depending on the tempo or whatever, but I'm always kind of trying to like live in that moment, whether it's playing jazz or bluegrass, because that's I feel like that's in some ways that's I feel like the essence of jazz, and I like that feeling of always changing, always like thinking on my feet, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But those styles are speaking of the essence of jazz, then, uh, from my perspective, uh jazz can sometimes be unpredictable and abstract and um technically dense. Um for uh you know, it it's funny because you know, I'll be in a uh a practice with a rock band and somebody'll hit a wrong note and they'll say, Oh, it's jazz, man. It's jazz. Yeah. Just as a joke. So for the person who says, I don't get jazz, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Um I think they just have to like I don't know, man. I think they just have to sit with it. You know what I mean? Like it's it they just have to like and maybe, you know, maybe it's finding because that's the thing, you know, like I mean, I think at its core jazz, you know, jazz is black American music. Right? So it's finding you know, finding it could be like Nat King Cole's trio from back in the day. Maybe they really like that old swing stuff, or or maybe they're looking for more like funky, like Herbie Hancock kind of stuff, you know what I mean? Or you know what I mean? Like just kind of trying trying to find what speaks to them in jazz. Because I feel like there's just there's so many, there's so many in some ways subgenres of jazz. You know what I mean? Sure. So finding what speaks to them and kind of sitting with it. And also sit with the stuff that is a little bit uncomfortable and challenge yourself a little bit, is what I would say.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

I think that's a great word for musicians.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Because it's like if you're not being challenged I tell my students this, it's like if you're not being challenged, you're not growing. So I would say the same thing potentially to a listener. Like I don't know. I remember I remember when I was younger, it's actually funny because it was feels like a full circle moment. I remember finding one of Kenny Wheeler's records in a library and um I didn't like it. I I was like at the I was young and I don't think I understood all the nuances of the non-functional harmony and stuff, and I was just it was like too abstract for me. And now I've actually, like you said, right, and I I recorded a record of mostly his music.

unknown 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Which is totally in that style. So it took me took me, you know, probably almost ten years to really have that stuff resonate. But yeah, sit with it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

You picked it now, you pick it up and you go, wait a minute, I love Flugelhorn.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Right? There's something here, man. Wait a minute. There's something here, like, so you can go to the transition.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

As I started to write more music, I think I started to appreciate different, like different diff people's different approaches within jazz, and Kenny's one of those guys that like he really writes melodies, you know? Interesting. It's yeah, it's like you can hear a melody. I tried to do it. So like the title track of the record kind of Kenny was my was my uh approach to trying to write a melody like he would write where you're hearing it all the time. You know.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

So yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. So now you you perform uh solo and with a group.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Uh I've done both. I mostly 99.9999% am solo these days, and there's reasons for that. So I'm curious for you as somebody who does both. What goes on inside your head? What changes mentally for you when you are playing with a group as opposed to being solo?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I mean it's I kind of I kind of feel like the different sides of my music are like it's like a it's like I'm kind of like a chameleon, right? So the the genres I play, maybe it they're different colors, you know, or like the people that I play with, those are just different sides of my musical life. So when I'm playing, like when I'm playing with my string band, in some ways I'm listening, I'm always listening, right? But with the string band, like five musicians, I'm kind of hearing it as if maybe in some ways, like I'm an orc orchestrator or an array or a ranger. I'm like, oh, what what am I hearing a mandolin try and do? Or could the mandolin and fiddle do something together because they're in the same range, or there's two guitars, what do we want to do there? Like um, and it's it's it's a negotiation, like always leaving space for other musicians, and and um I also write um I write a lot of music for the group and I like to hear that music written using that instrumentation. So that's really I mean it that's really cool, man. It's it's it's like never it's always exciting, you know. So it's I mean it's I guess it just depends on who you're playing with. If everyone's listening, uh and no one is more like, I guess, in some ways in charge, right? Because when you feel like you're playing with other musicians and there's like one person that like has an ego the way they're playing, or it's about them in some way, they're not making it about the music. So that's tough, you know, when you're playing with other musicians. Um it should be selfish, right? It should be so I always say, like, it should we should be serving the music. You know, if we're not serving the music, uh, you know. Um, as a solo guitarist, I I sometimes like think about the guitar as if it's an orchestra. So it's like each string, interesting, each string could be like, you know, the sixth string is the bass, right? The fifth string is the cello. Like it's like you have all these different opportunities and and things that you can do. And I also like solo guitar because I can do whatever the heck I want, you know. So I could be playing, I could be playing in time, I could move out of time. So in some ways, there's like there's more flexibility because I can kind of change at the drop of a hat. Um so I I love it all, I love it all, man. Like, you know, I like I said, I'm working on this like solo guitar record of mostly music from Mexico, and that's really that's very challenging for me because what I'm trying to do is interpret vocal melodies and play them as if I was singing them but on the guitar. So it's I'm always thinking about like where I'm being challenged, I'm growing, and so that's that's kind of why I enjoy both. But as you know, right, playing solo, it um it can be very cost effective.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah, for sure. It's yeah, and that that is the major reason I play mostly solo.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Is uh yeah, it's it's cost effective. You don't have to travel with other people, you know, like personalities, because that's a thing. Um and uh yeah, and you kind of can call the shots and and yeah, you can push yourself in in that way and also hopefully walk away every night with some actual bread.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Yeah, yeah. And that's a good thing, but then you know, I I watch videos every once in a while of me playing with the band, and I go, Oh shoot, yeah, this. Yeah, that's right, yeah, I miss this. Different, you know. But yeah, yeah. So you touched on this a little bit. Uh we just started to get into there, but uh what separates then in your mind the musicians who can play well from the musicians who can actually sustain a life in music, keep it going.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, man. I mean, it's I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that out too, those two things like play well and sustaining a life in music. I mean, I think like the first thing, I don't know, like there's there's two, like I to me, there's like two main things with it. I think the first thing, if we really think about it is for people, uh you know, we are human beings, and um, I think we should be good human beings. So it's it's like I think the first thing for anyone trying to make a whole life in music is be a decent human being. Like be professional, have a good attitude, you know what I mean? Like be respectful. That you know, that means to venues that you're working with, fellow musicians, um, you know what I mean? That kind of stuff that's like to me, that's like one of my mentors that told me that, like, at the end of the day, you have to be a good human being. And so I think that's I think that's the first I think that's the first thing, man. You know, and I don't think people talk about that enough. Um and then the second thing, kind of what I touched on before was like we have to create your own opportunities. You know what I mean? Like I like I look at it's weird, but like with my string band, uh we're like doing all this music and getting ready for this new record release, and we're planning these gigs and all these things, and I'm kind of like I'm like, I'm like vision trying to visualize our success and create the opportunities to go there, I guess if that makes sense. So it's it's trying, you know, it's like hustling, don't rest on your laurels, right? Like try and make things try and make things happen. Uh and yeah, be creative. And it's right it's not like one shoe, one size fits all, right? But yeah, try and try and make your own opportunities, however that looks for you, right? You can that that can be defined differently.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah. Those are two very great things. I'm I'm actually uh glad you touched on being a good human because the episode that's coming up after this airs is going to be about our reputation as musicians. So I think that's a good segue for that. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

That's it. That's all you it's like besides maybe your recordings or something, it's like that's your reputation precedes you in every way, you know? Yeah. It's it's yeah, it's crucial, man. Like you don't want to be known as a Mariah Carey Diva.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

No. No, no.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Not at all. Yeah. Not at all. Uh what lesson then, as you're figuring it out, you know, as you're we're all stumbling through it in some ways, you know. What what's a lesson that you've learned the hard way from digging, either solo or with a band?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Oh man. Um let's see, let me think about that. Let's see.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

I would say, hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I don't uh I would probably say that things need to be in writing whenever possible. Uh uh like I I mean, you know, a an email correspondence um is okay, but I mean what I mean is like, you know, a contract, a contract writer, some sort of some sort of like binding agreement where parties understand kind of what we are entering into and why, right? To protect the musicians or the band or the artist and to protect the venue and to make sure everyone gets what they want.

unknown 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

You know what I mean? And so I've I've had situations in the past where I did not do that, um, or I did not feel like it was necessary. Um and uh, you know, it creates I think it can create, yeah, it creates gray area, it creates it creates uh, you know, room for interpretation. And it's like, no, it's like it's like no, the gig it's like it's either 500 bucks or it's 500 bucks, right? Or whatever, right? It's like it's not like well, we didn't put it in writing, so we're actually gonna give you 250, you know, or something, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Right. But it's a jazz gig, so I'm gonna improvise on the amount of money.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah that I yeah, so that was probably to me, to me, that was probably the biggest thing, you know? And and there's and there's multiple examples of that that I don't need to get into, but I think it's yeah, it's just good. Like I said, it's you know, and actually this will lead this will lead into another question that you have. Um, but um I think I remember you writing what's something that a music school can't teach you, or something like that. Was that the question?

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Yeah, I did. I sent I sent you a few questions ahead of time that I thought were you know the harder ones. So I wanted you to be able to think through that. Do you mind if I lead in well? Yeah, please do, because maybe tell people what you do uh uh um because you teach as as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

I do I do it all. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Okay, yeah. You teach, uh, you've been through music schools. So yeah, what do music schools what what can't they teach you or don't they teach you?

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, I mean it's like you know, they can they can teach you like, oh yeah, you gotta have these scales ready, or I guess if you're studying jazz, like these are all the things you have to have together to play this tune. Okay, go. You know, it's like, but like um, let's talking about this, I think, first, this segue is I think a lot of times, at least in jazz studies programs, and this is me speaking personally, you know, like they're not touching on as much of the business aspect of the music. You know, they're talking about music making and and trying to, you know, trying to play at a high level and all that stuff, which is great. But what's lacking, I think, in a lot of programs is music business. Is, you know, is is so like what I've what I've done is I've referenced a lot of different music business books and done a lot of research to try and under to try and get a better understanding of the business side of the music, right? Because the landscape's always changing. It's ever changing now in the digital era, right? With everything now and streaming. Yeah, AI has thrown AI has thrown us a little bit of a wrench with that too, because now they're creating AI music and and all that stuff. That's a whole nother thing. Uh, but you know, it's that was a big one for me. It's like I wasn't really taught about the business, the business aspect of of making it, making it as a musician in the business. Um and then there's other ones too, like they I mean I feel like some folks just work hard or have a good work ethic and some some don't, you know what I mean? Or some some expect opportunities to just show up knocking at their door. It's like it doesn't work like that. So they don't they don't really teach you that. You just have to go and do it. You know?

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Um, the other big one for me um was you know, they didn't show you how to make a record. Which which is which is fine, which is totally fine. But you know, like that was that was another aspect I think a lot of musicians in schools could be that could be helpful for them if that's something they want to do, right? Because there's just so many different avenues to be successful. Um and and challenge yourselves a musician. So, you know, that was kind of fun trying to figure that out on my own. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Yeah, it seems like that would be such a great idea to have some kind of a lab at a school where where students get to get in there and you know, not only digital, but you know, throw some two-inch tape up there and and learn how to do some analog stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah, do something like, yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, um, I was lucky at East Tennessee State, we had a really good state-of-the-art recording studio. And uh it was and we had in the program, we had, you know, again, and maybe it differs depending on the university, but for us, we had like four or five classes we had to take within it that mostly revolved around being in the studio in some way. So that was really cool because then it just kind of started to get me curious about being in the studio more. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I gotta pay to be here now, but you regardless, right? Like, oh, this is the cool environment, man. Like, this is like if I think back to my favorite recordings or whatever, it's like it all happened here in some way, so it's like that's that I want to get more into that. And since my masters, that was like a big thing for me was trying to build a body of work as far as my recording catalog goes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Yeah, you know, it's interesting once you've recorded something, I know you will understand this. Yeah, everybody who listens to an album, they don't get it. If you were actually the ones involved in the recording, when you hear it back, you recall the times, the places, the inside jokes, the the how many takes it took to get that thing. Yeah, um, and it's a story. Yeah, and when I when I listen back to things I've recorded, I hear my friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

And I love that. Yeah, man. It's a moment in time. It's a moment in time, you know, like like this new trio record that I've got, I've been sitting on for like way too long. And it's like the tunes are really good, the energy's really good, and it's it's like my thing with my recordings too, is like just trying to. I want to hopefully move somebody the way I'm moved in when I'm hearing someone else's recording or something, you know, in some way. And and so it's uh it's like people need to hear this stuff, man. Can't have it, can't have it be sitting in the can any longer, you know?

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah, yeah, that's not why you do it. No, you do it to be heard, yeah. Hmm. So you've touched on a few things that are like that the hard parts of the music business, the learning curve. Um, how do you when when things are tough, when things go awry, when you get stiffed at a gig, which by the way, if you want to name that venue that stiffed you, go ahead. No, I'm joking. Don't do that. Don't don't don't call them up. Yeah, they're not worth it. We won't be nasty. We won't be nasty. Um, but when you have all that stuff going on, how do you protect your love from music when all of that stuff kind of threatens it? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yeah, I mean, it's just like I don't know, like I don't know, you know, for me it I'm always as a musician, I'm very curious. Like there's two things, for me at least, it's like there's two things. I'm very curious, I'm very curious about the nuances, different styles, and and really getting at the heart of them and trying to understand them and play them well and write within them well. So that always gets me engaged and wanting to like learn. I'm never like I never stop trying to like learn and challenge myself. Um but I but I think you know when when when those um aspects of the music business or those kind of things happen, like one of my mentors, uh Mimi Fox, she says, that's this, you know, that's the part of the music business that's like soul crushing. But it's not everything. So it's it's like the like I guess what I'm trying to say is like my curiosity and always wanting to challenge myself and push myself exceeds any soul crushing experiences that I've had. You know what I mean? It's like it's like oh this was this wasn't fun or whatever, but man, I still really want to learn this thing, or you know, it's like yeah, we'll we'll we'll try again, you know, and hopefully you have a better experience, and hopefully you yeah, you you don't get stiffed to a gig or or or whatever, or you know what I mean? It's like because because music at its core, it's like it's it's art, man, like everything else, it's a medium of expression.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

And it's and and and we're trying, I guess, it's like we're trying to we're trying to like make a living within it, so I guess to a certain extent, extent with protecting it, right? I think also what I do is uh I think that's probably why I try and and charge what I can. And and you know what I mean? I try and charge what I feel like I and my band or whatever is worth, which is hard. It's hard to like take that aspect of whatever you've worked on or how many years, and then you try and put a number on it. You know, but that's I think that's some of that protection too, is you know I think I think at this point I or we or whatever we deserve this or whatever, and you know, so I I think that's part of it, that protecting, like making sure we are ensuring that not that we're wasting our time, but you know, yeah, getting getting whatever we can out of it.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Well, if I ever become a millionaire, I'll go back and tally the times that you played at my venue and uh I'll compensate you for what you were actually worth.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

I know it's all good, dude. It's all good. I I that was such a great place, man. And Folsom's such a cool area, and and uh, you know, like I said, man, like you guys you seemed really cool, man. Like, and it was just like having a good experience with you and the venue, and and I feel like that's a really that's it's like at its core, right? Like being good human beings, like get like hopefully getting along with each other, building a rapport, building, building a network, right? This is how we do that. Like, yeah, like like with one of my mentors, he that's what it is. It's like a grassroots thing. He's got friends and connections all over the world, from here to Slovenia, you know what I mean? And it's like he oh yeah, he will just go and like and and make use of that network. And and I think at its core, like for him, and that's John Stoll for anybody who's curious, you know, he's he's one of the masters of jazz guitar. It's at his core, he's a really amazing and good human being. And I think with him being like so down to earth and such a good guy, he's able to connect with all these different people and create these networks and things. So I think everyone needs to like be more like John.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

You know, that's that's such a great testament to uh somebody who's influenced you in your life.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, such a kind person, you know.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

And would that be great if that's how people just described us? You know, they're sitting around their kitchen table and like he doesn't know this conversation's happening right now, but but you're talking about him because he his kindness made a difference.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah. Gosh.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And it's created, like I said, man, it's like it's created. He's also an amazing musician, but that's like the I always tell my students, like, or my band, like that's like the bare minimum is being good. But but I I've realized like no no no, it's not just about being good, like you have to be like a decent human being, you have to be kind. And I think I think for John, he's you know, that has helped him because everyone's everyone's a fan of John, man. He's great, you know, and he's such a good guy.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

So yeah. Oh, you just gave me a song idea. Oh, cool. Yeah, you ready for this? Yeah. Kind kindness is the root note.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

I like that. That's cool, man. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

I I may do nothing with that, but that's what I was picturing as you were talking. Yeah. Uh okay, so go back in time. You know, picture yourself 10 years ago, if if you can do that. And what's something that's happening in your gigging life right now that you 10 years ago you didn't see coming, or you maybe absolutely did not believe that would be the case, or you know, kind of play that game for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Yeah, let's see. Um I don't know. I think the I think the the opportunities have changed, you know, and like the uh I think as I've as I've hopefully, you know, I'm crossing my fingers here for everybody that can't see me right, but as I've hopefully gotten better, and I'm always trying to get better, um there's better opportunities, right? As I've as I've grown as a musician and as a person and as an artist, um there have been there have been more opportunities than I had at that time, you know. Um like uh like I had mentioned kind of in in the bio, you know, it's like recently the the new Kushda Collective and I we had an awesome chance to play at Cornerstone Berkeley, which is such a great venue, man. And like I think there were like almost 300 people in the crowd, and we were opening for a really great progressive bluegrass band called Magoo out of Colorado. And we were just opening, man, but it was like such a great opportunity, you know, and it's like at 21 years old, I I wouldn't have thought I'd be playing in a room in a room of that size with that many people opening for opening for another act, and the audience loved the music that I and my band were playing and writing. It's like it's crazy, man. You know, it's it's it's it's crazy, like, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Um what a what a feeling. Those little aha moments. It is.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

And then there's and then there's some things where I'm like, you know, there's probably some experiences that I had at 21, because I'm now 31, where I'm like, you know, there's things that I experienced then that I'm still experiencing now, and I'm like, I gotta figure out how to like, you know. I don't know. I gotta I gotta I gotta figure that out, you know, and make sure I'm always thinking about the business and what's gonna be best for me and and and and and always kind of keeping that in mind and protecting protecting the music and protecting myself, I guess, to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

You know, yeah. Jason, I'm I'm glad that you joined us today. Yeah, this is fun to talk to you. If if somebody wants to learn more about you, uh they want to find out where your upcoming gigs are, that maybe they want to hire you and pay you what you're worth, uh how do they find you?

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Um yeah, you guys can you know find me on uh social media, you know, just the Jason Kaiser K-E-I-S-E-R music uh on Instagram and Facebook and all that fun stuff, um, as well as my band, the new acoustic collective um on Instagram and Facebook, and then my website is uh just jasonkaisermusic.com and uh definitely check out the uh new acoustic collective.com. Uh we've got a uh we've got a new album that's coming out in July on Ocho Roger Records called Double Course. Um they're a great label from New York, and we're really stoked to work with them and and uh yeah, so definitely stay tuned for that. And like I said, I've got some releases coming up and stuff too. So Yeah, that's I think where you can find me, man. I appreciate the opportunity, John. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Oh, heck yeah. Yeah, you're a good man. And you're kind.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

I'm trying, man. Always trying to be better.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

You're doing well, man. All right, until next time.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Stay creative, stay after it, stay hired.