Ep 18: A Conversation with Clementine Moss

This episode's guest is the amazing Clementine Moss, best known for her work with the Led Zeppelin tribute band, Zepparella. John and Clementine talk about music and gigging, and take a dive into habits, spiritual practices, mental health, and mindset that are necessary for the gigging musician. For longevity.

Below is the bio from Clementine's website www.clemthegreat.com:

Clementine Moss is a dynamic creative force—a drummer, songwriter, singer, musician, and writer whose artistic journey continues to inspire and evolve.

Her latest work, Nothing Will Keep Us Apart, is a 7-song pop/folk album that beautifully showcases her songwriting and vocal talents. The first single, “Your Love,” is set to release on December 10, 2024, and offers an intimate glimpse into her reflective, soulful sound.

“Most of my songs are about love, both for the other and the divine,” Clementine shares. “Where do we find light when so much feels dark? It’s only in love that we find freedom, even when holding to that truth isn’t easy. Exploring that difficulty is a favorite theme in this album.” Written alongside producer/bassist Robert Preston and keyboardist William Cameron, the track brings to mind the eclectic spirit of artists like Tom Waits, St. Vincent, and Norah Jones.

In 2025, Clementine will expand her repertoire with Clem & Clearlight, a jazz-infused collection of nine tracks crafted with guitarist and composer Daniele Gottardo.

As a drummer, Clementine’s powerfully emotive style brings unparalleled depth to every project. As the founding member of ZEPPARELLA, she honors the best rock drumming ever composed with her own raw intensity, accentuating the Motown heartbeat within Bonham’s iconic grooves. Over the past 20 years, she’s rocked Zeppelin covers and penned her own music, earning a guest spot in November 2023 with NBC’s Late Night 8G Band on *Late Night with Seth Meyers*.

Her 2023 book, From Bonham to Buddha and Back: The Slow Enlightenment of the Hard Rock Drummer, draws on writings from her blog, *Bliss and Drumming.* Through it, Clem explores the intertwining paths of spiritual practice and a music career. A contributor to Modern Drummer Magazine and more, she continues to reach readers with her insights.

A lifelong spiritual seeker, Clementine connects deeply to her true self as a performer. She finds insight through decades of Vipassana meditation, Advaita practices, and other meditation disciplines that center her life and work.

Beyond music, Clementine is a Depth Hypnosis Practitioner, an Applied Shamanic Practitioner, and a nondenominational Minister at the Foundation of the Sacred Stream in Berkeley, California, under the guidance of Isa Gucciardi, Ph.D. She holds a certificate in Contemplative Psychotherapy from the Nalanda Institute and is a Master of Morphic Awakening Energetic Healing Technique, which promotes energy healing on all levels. Sound healing and other modalities enrich her practice, enhancing her holistic approach to well-being.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to the Gig to Live Podcast. Welcome everyone. I'm John Foles and I'm a full-time working musician. This podcast is about building a music life that holds up over time. It's practical, enjoyable, sometimes uncomfortable, but it's always about helping you stay in the game and actually enjoy the life that you're building. We'll meet some wonderful working musicians from time to time. So whether you're just getting started or you've been doing this for years, you're in the right spot. This podcast is for you. Well, welcome everyone to the podcast. Man, this is a special day. You get to hear a very special guest. Today we have with us Clementine Moss, uh, known to a lot of her fans simply as Clementine. She's a drummer, she's a writer, she's an author, a depth hypnosis practitioner, a spiritual counselor. I know this all sounds lofty, we're going to unpack it a bit. She's the founding member of Zepparella, which is uh, she's probably best known for that band, even though she's been in a myriad of bands over the years. Zeppelella has been rocking audiences for I think over 20 years now. World renowned Led Zeppelin tribute band, and I recently got to see them play in Roseville, California, which was a super treat because I've wanted to see them for years, and uh it never works out. I always have a gig. But as fate would have it, I had a gig cancel on a Saturday night, and I said, wait a minute, I think this is a night that Zepparella is playing. So I logged online, I bought a ticket, I called a few friends, and we all met up there and we had a great time. She brings a serious presence to the stage. She's locked in, she's incredibly energetic. Uh, I don't know where she gets the energy, powerful, clearly knows what she's doing behind that kit. If I were going to start a tribute band today, there is no way I would try to tackle Led Zeppelin. I wouldn't want to emulate or try to channel any one of those rock gods for fear of sucking big time. Uh and not to, you know, diminish the relationship of any other band, but I'd probably try something like the Ramones or The Monkeys, you know, but but Zeppelin, dear Lord, and John Bonham. Uh Clementine is a multiple or a multidisciplinary creative. Uh nobody's going to, you know, tell her what lane she needs to stay in. She is the author of the book From Bonham to Buddha and Back. She's released amazing solo music. Uh, and yes, I have listened to it, that shows another side of her as an artist. She's built a career that uh moves between performing and writing and working with people, and she brings all of her real-world experience to all of that and to the conversation, which is super fun. It was her birthday at the beginning of April. We sang happy birthday to her when we were in Roseville. So happy late birthday, Clementine, and welcome to the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Thank you, John. Thanks for all that that kindness about uh everything that you just said. I always feel a little embarrassed when I hear about all of that stuff. Uh I like to take things minute by minute. So to see it, to hear it all kind of there always is kind of I don't know. I don't feel attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Uh well it's it's great. It's not exaggeration. My goodness, you've had a lot of things going on over the years and you excel. Uh it seems everything you put your mind to, which is it's cool, you know, for us as observers into your life. Um it's neat to see all the different things that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Uh well, it was a really a big treat to get to s to meet you before our conversation, you know. So I I already already feel like I know you. So we get to have a uh a good conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, I love it. Uh why don't we start by you telling us how you decided to dedicate your life to music? I I I think I was reading on your website, the band's website, that you had a a goal from a young age to be on stage every single night, which I think was an amazing little quote that uh stood out to me. So how did you decide to dedicate your life to music?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Well, it's funny because um I didn't I always saw myself as a writer. Um and I, you know, I went to school, studied writing, and then I moved to New York City thinking that that's kind of, you know, where I belonged as a writer. Um, and then when I was confused about who I was, where my writing voice was, what I was supposed to write about, um, I was looking around for something else to do. And um while I was figuring that out and I took a drum lesson, um, I was 27 years old and um I just uh it just caught me. Um and you know, I had played instruments as a kid, but you know, I think I stopped once I almost I think when I hit you know uh high school I just kind of stopped playing music. So um yeah, it didn't it didn't occur to me that that was gonna be a part of my life. Um when I was uh in my twenties in New York City, a lot of my friends and my boyfriend were all musicians. Um my boyfriend was a recording engineer, so I spent a lot of time watching how music was made. Um, and I found it really inspiring. And he was the kind of person who, you know, when he heard me singing in the shower, he was like, Oh, you have a good voice, you know, you should sing. You know, he's very encouraging when I uh sat down at that drum kit that first time before it even occurred to me. It was just there was a drum set in the room, and um he's like, Oh, actually, here, do this. Oh, good, you picked that up really fast. You know, everything I did was very encouraging. So it just seemed like, you know, okay, this is fun, you know, it's just it's a lot of fun to do. Um and you know, my first drum teacher, it was like, you know, I had an hour lesson and I was there for two hours because we just connected. Um, and I I remember thinking, like, wow, you know, being a musician would be a really great career because you could travel, which I love to travel, and you could be creative with a group of people, which I always loved collaboration. And I was like, maybe that's what I'll do for a living. Because at that point I had no idea what I was gonna do like for a living to make money. I was just doing gig work all the time. And um, and so I was when I look back, it was just such a goofy thought. 27 to be like, I know, I'll do that as a career. It's like I don't know how to play anything, I don't know what goes into it, but I was just like, this just really kind of lights me up to do. So, you know, I I that's kind of how it all happened.

unknown 8:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I love that. And I love that you said you were 27 when you started playing drums. I remember watching the Olympics, I think uh last last summer Olympics or the one before that, and they were there was a drum uh uh a drummer, there was a swimmer swimming, and they said something, I caught it in passing, like, uh, they realize they're coming to the end of their career soon, you know, they're 24 years old. And I thought, oh my gosh, like I could not imagine being in my mid-20s and thinking it was the end of my life.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

And so to pick it up at 27 and then make a career out of it, that's super fun.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah. It's funny because there were so many, there's you know, on one hand, like I remember a moment when I was 13 in junior high school, and the jazz band from the high school came and played a concert, and the girl uh there was a a female drummer, uh, there was a female drummer in the band. And I remember being really transfixed by that. Like, wow, like that seemed really amazing to me. And and I remember as I was watching thinking, I think I would like to do that. That looks like something I would really like to do. But then thinking I had played so many instruments at that point and wasn't a good practicer, and I just I wasn't getting along that great, like I was kind of separating from my parents in that kind of dramatic way that we do at a certain point. And the idea of going home and saying I wanted to play drums seemed outlandish. But I look back at that moment and I think, you know, they were presented to me. And what if I had, you know, really stepped into it and you know, been a drummer from then. And you know, I see my my both my nephews are drummers now. They're they're sixteen and fourteen or fifteen, and they're both in the jazz band, the marching band, the you know, the wind ensemble, the orchestra, like they're getting the big education, drumming education. And I look at that and I'm just so happy for them and I think, gosh, that would be would have been so amazing for me at that time to really latch on to it. But then also to learn when you're older, it's um you know, first of all, I got to I I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to swing and I wanted to keep good time. You know, like those were my two, like I understood what that really meant in the in the music. Um, and so I was able to kind of focus and decide that I wanted to do that. I knew how to work at it. And then also I had no ego about it. It was like ever like I was gonna be the worst person on any stage. You know, when I started playing, I remember asking a couple people, you want to just get together and jam? And they were like working musicians. They were like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like that's not you know, like I don't do that anymore. You know, I'm not 14. So um, so in a way I just always knew I was gonna be like, you know, I was gonna be the one kind of lucky to be on the stage. And so um I didn't have that sense of competition, I didn't have that sense of um, like I had to, you know, anything I got was gravy. You know, any show I played, it was like, wow, like I get to play because people are gonna pay to see me play, you know. Um, rather than I think when you learn early, there is that real drive to have to, you have a lot of ideas that you form when you're 15 years old about stardom or all of that stuff, and if that stuff doesn't happen the way you think it does, I think a lot of pe it's a trap for a lot of people, some something like that. So, there's good and bad. Yeah, there's good and bad about all that.

unknown 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah. Wow. Thanks for that. What uh what's fueling you these days musically? Like what is breathing life into you? You know, what are you celebrating these days?

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yeah, well, one thing is um, you know, about drumming is um, you know, I've noticed a lot of um a lot of laziness. Um, you know, when you play the same songs for a real long time, um, what happens is your ability changes over time. Your chops change, but you're still playing songs the way you first learn them when you were, you know, um you were uh um like taking shortcuts because you didn't have the chops to be able to do it, especially with Bon. Like there's so many subtle chops that that I just didn't have at the beginning, and so I just had to like do as well as good as I could, and now I'm looking back at some of the songs I've been playing and they're like I really need to actually do what he's doing there rather than what I've done for so long. And um, and it's been great because you know, Gretchen, my guitarist, Gretchen men, she, you know, um, she's been in school for composition and her her hearing has really, you know, honed itself in a lot of ways. And so it's kind of a conversation like where she's like, that is just not quite right, you know, and it's great that she can hear it, and I can go in and be like, okay, that's great. Like I can I can really hone that. So I'm working a lot on drum chops right now. Um I see the the ways that I've been kind of coasting a little bit um for a while. And um, so you know, I have a month off right now from playing and and I have a lot of um like I have this big two-page list of everything that I want to do every day to just kind of work on some things that I've been um that I've been lagging on. Um so I want to step up drumming. Um and then, you know, with songwriting, I'm in a funny place because last year I put out two albums, two different approaches of songwriting, and now I'm in the a place where I'm um I'm figuring out what is coming next, and I have some ideas yet, but nothing is formed. And so what I've been doing, because I don't play really a melodic instrument, the way that I write is I have a drumbeat, and then out of the drumbeat that I create, and then out of the drumbeat, I hear vocals and lyrics, and then I put down very basic chord progressions, and then in the past, what I've done is then presented that to other musicians and have them fill out stuff. Um, and uh so lately I've been figuring out how to, you know, when you do it that way, what happens is the song can kind of get away from you a little bit from your original intent because you're bringing other people in, which is great. Um, and they always bring in amazing stuff, but I I wanna see what it would be like for me to create it as much as I can from what I'm I'm hearing uh myself, and so I'm working with different programs to try to make that happen. And you know, we're lucky we live in an age where there's a lot of different programs that could kind of kind of assist in that. So I have all of these little pieces the other day I went in and I was like, what have I been doing? And I have like, you know, ten little pieces of all of these things, and I have no idea what they are, and I'm like, oh okay. So I I'm in a time of exploration, I think, for cr uh for songwriting.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Honor upon night, got a message in moonlight, oh my life fab with the blue oh my life fabing with the blue face in the beast.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

You have the self-improvement gene. Not everybody has that gene, you know, where we just want to to get better and better at our craft. And uh and that's encouraging to see because uh and to hear that that's breathing life and energy into you is uh you know, that's a lesson that I think we can all we can all take something from that. I like how you said that Gretchen is uh pushing you and I'm sure hearing it from her feels way different than some, you know, kid sitting in his mom's basement listening to Zeppelin all day offering you advice on how to play Bonham's parts more accurately or something. I'm sure you get that too.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

It's usually a 68-year-old man who's telling me those things actually.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Um, which a actually I do take, you know, it's like a lot of the stuff is, you know, kind of baloney. Um I always say that like any negative thing that anybody says to me, I've told myself way worse, you know. So critici I've kind of made my peace with criticism. Um which fortunately I really don't get that much, which I I'm very grateful for the kindness of people and and what they say. But you know, every now and then somebody will point out something and I'll and I'll I'll take it to heart, you know. I mean if somebody is doing it, you know, like, oh, that's not right. I look at it and there's like you know, everybody has ears and you know, I don't have a ha like I don't have a lot of too much ego around it because I want it to be right, you know, when you're um you know, when you're you know, like you said, it's a big undertaking to take on music that people have like gotten married to and you know, had their child to and you know, you know you know, it's like this this like profound, you know, connection people have in the music. So I do want to get it right. But you know, when Gretchen and I started Zepparella, we were talking about the kind of you know environment that we wanted in the band. And you know, something that we I've said to everybody who's ever we've ever worked with in the band is like, look, uh the the thing is is that if I tell you something isn't working, there's nothing else behind it. I don't think that you're bad. I don't think that, you know, I'm just I I'm doing it because I want you to shine right and even and it can be hard to hear like that's just not right. That's just not right, that's just not right. And you're like, I don't know what's wrong. You know, and there are those moments of frustration, but I don't take it personally. I understand that she wants what's best for me. Right. And I know that when I if I hear something that you know I'm like every time you do that you're it's kind of rush. It feels rushy. It doesn't feel right. If I there's a tiny little moment like that with her, um she's always she goes home and she works on it and she like is like okay Glen is hearing it like this. I want it to be right and you know we've always been um it's you know we've always tried to keep it that way in the band where we're trying to elevate each other and um and to to have it be right so that we don't have to hear it from somebody else. We hear it from somebody who loves us and wants us to to be better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Well I I think you touched on something super important. And I mean it's good to have life editors and all you know whatever it is music, uh you know marriage whatever whatever it is just to navigate life to have people in your life to you know spur spur you on to to become the best version of you but you have you have to invite that person in. Like they have to be you have to give them permission to do that. And that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah it's funny I just saw the um the Paul McCartney documentary that just came out where he's talking about um you did you see that? Yeah the one that uh the one his daughter did or is there an uh it's the one about um the time period right after the Beatles when he was trying to figure out it I think it just came out.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

And um and when he's trying to figure out who he is as a songwriter, like is he a songwriter and all of that. It was really you know beautiful and vulnerable but you know they were talking about these different moments of real kind of goofy shit that he did. And he said you have to understand there was nobody around me at that time who told me maybe that's not a good idea. And he's like I look back and I really I'm like yeah that wasn't a good idea and everybody was like oh he's a beetle he knows what he's doing he was like no I needed people to tell me like bad idea. Fascinating yeah insightful so well let's let's push a little deeper into that since we're talking about you know being technically great and uh being sharpened you know in our performance what's the difference between a technically great performance for you one that you know the hi hat hits in all the right spots you know it feels as sloppy as it needs to be whatever what's the difference between that and something that feels transcendent and magical to you yeah yeah I think it is um you know I think every musician every athlete every artist every you know everybody who's passionate passionate about what they do they have those moments where the mind leaves the thoughts leave and what's happening is happening through us right and there's no barrier for drums it's it's very pronounced because it's such a physical thing there's no mind telling me that anything is wrong right there's everything is um it's like the music is kind of playing me and and I'm not my my thought I'm not attaching to my thoughts like little thoughts come in like oh here comes that Phil or whatever but it's just and then it goes but those thoughts go away I don't attach to them um and a for me a bad show is when I cannot get out of that mind and it's usually because there's something going on the maybe the equipment is messed up you know we fly to a lot of places and you know I'll have a hi hat that's just trying to travel around the stage or you know just you know stuff is just not right and that really keeps me in my head you know where I have to I can't just be in a flow I have to like hit differently or sit differently or um or I'm playing at altitude and I have to conserve the way that my body is moving because I don't have as much oxygen. So I have to you know that'll keep me in my head and um and I I think I've made my peace with that kind of playing a little bit more by just focusing on the um on the chops element of it on the you know trying to be as exact as possible um but it's not that flow state um and I used to really beat myself up in that kind of mental way of playing but I think I've gotten away from that now I just focus on the craft the craft of drumming it's kind of like when I stopped for a number of years um I smoked pot before I would get on stage and when I stopped that it was like I was like how am I not how am I going to access that like free flow that that creative flow that I felt like the the drug gave me and then it occurred to me like no it's the craft to focus on focus on the craft of drumming and when I started focusing on like hitting the drum in the right place on the on the you know on the head or um you know sitting up or the my hand positions or all of these like very specific things through that I entered a kind of flow state that was even bigger right so it's like I had to focus in um in order to access like an even bigger ability to let myself go and kind of be in it. The craft carried me into it. So yeah it's something like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah that's good. Okay let's not really shift gears. Actually I think this is a good segue uh you're a depth hypnosis practitioner and a spiritual counselor um and it sounds really cool but honestly I think there's a lot of people that go okay what does that mean? So you know if I if I showed up for a few sessions uh with you if that's a thing if that's how it works what would we do? You know what what could I expect?

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Well uh yeah I'll try to make this short so um depth hypnosis was created by a teacher uh in Berkeley California named Isaguciardi and um the Depth Hypnosis is a uh modality like a healing modality that combines Western psychology um so we go into sessions right um okay uh it has um Buddhism in it especially Tibetan Buddhism which um has to do with um there's a lot of um like Tibetan Buddhism took on the sh the shamanic tradition of Tibet the Bun tradition so there's um an element of um of the spirit while also keeping that structure of Buddha there's a structure in Buddhism of um that's kind of tight you know like a a a tight uh ethical I would say maybe structure of the way that things are and it also understands that at the core of each of us is that kind of clear light place that is already healed right so we take that as an assumption um that the person themselves knows how best to heal from what we're working on um and then um shamanic techniques and shamanism as we understand it is earth-based wisdom 95% of human humanity has a shamanic background um and it's where a shaman is someone who looks at the natural world and brings back messages they get from nature um to the tribe to the person who needs the healing and uses those um uses that understanding in order to heal right so all of these things come into um come into um view when we're doing a death hypnosis session and so basically it's uh a regular counseling session but we're taking uh we're understanding that we can in a deep meditative state we can access a lot of information about ourselves what I call the our inner metaphoric system right so when we're in a meditative state and our conscious critical mind isn't as active images and feelings are safe to rise and we work with them um with tradit what we call traditional shamanic technique so maybe we're retrieving power from a situation or a relationship where we felt like we lost power. We're retrieving what we call like a soul part you know say you have an accident and you know something you know you kind of went into shock. There's an idea that you left a part of yourself back there that keeps us from being whole and um and and we repeat patterns because of that loss. And so we'll go back in a safe environment and retrieve that thing. We'll do what we call like a past life regression right where we um we follow a feeling back and we get an image and say somebody gets this image like I you know I just kind of see this image of me in a prison cell and there's you know straw on the ground and you know I'm I feel like I've been unjustly accused and you know and we kind of work with this image that's come up and the thing I like about depth hypnosis is it doesn't really require us to believe that it's a past life. If you don't believe in past lives you can say my internal metaphoric system is giving me this image of me in a prison because this is the way I'm feeling about situations in this life right now. And there's a way for us to kind of draw those conclusions and um so it's it's a lot to explain in a short amount of time like this but um you know when I started I started uh working with a practitioner first before I became a practitioner and okay what I healed with myself in like four sessions was I had had a negative voice inside of my head for as long as I could remember everything that happened in my life I would turn on myself like everything bad it would turn in on myself it was because of me because I was not good what I was essentially not worthy of love. I was not um I was not good I my first uh silent meditation retreat I went on for 10 days and I was quiet for 10 days and you know my internal voice became this big megaphone in my mind and it was all judgment it was all negative pointed at myself and I was like I don't know what that is but I I I couldn't get underneath it it was just always there and um and after you know several sessions of in-depth hypnosis I woke up and it was like it was gone and that was amazing to me because I spent a really long time trying to figure it out and get get into that through Western psychology and you know through meditation and through different practices and suddenly I made this peace with myself I had I had empowered connected to that part of myself that was healed and able to feel love and be love and um and that was profound to me. So um that's why I decided that I wanted to to help other people find that that kind of internal power and and connection um you know I I feel that you know so much of what we see in the world is suffering. I think you know at the at the base of it is the feeling of so many people that they just are not good enough you know they're not good that they're um they're not worthy of even the divine love whatever however you interpret that and um that we have to be something different in order to really be worthy and you know it it's a great deal of suffering um in that way. And um yeah so you know a lot of my life I I felt really selfish that the things that I did were so self-involved writing and you know music it was so fun and what am I doing you know for the world in any way and and so this kind of answered you know my my feeling that I wanted to be of service you know to people to other people.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. You know I grew up in a different tradition. I grew up in a in a Christian uh tradition um but one of the things that uh my wife and I have always uh uh approached you know spirituality with and we've taught our kids is to whenever we're talking to somebody else always your first question should be what do I have in common with this person? What can I learn from this person? And I love it, you know, because in my tradition I actually think it's a huge problem that you know I know a bunch of people that that they don't feel worthy. They don't feel love and and there's a myriad of reasons for that that I can get into I think I know where it stems from um it's so uh it it's encouraging to hear um what you're saying and I you know I think as musicians especially musicians we feel things so deeply you know and so when we fill the when we fill the yuck we feel it deeply right and uh and it it seems like it it just takes so much work to get past that. In my tradition we we talked a lot about things like language and metaphor and story and you know semiotic stuff you know signs and what those things mean. All those things are super fascinating to me like all the geeky things are really fascinating to me. And um in the biblical Hebrew text uh there's no real word for spiritual and I understand why we have the the the word spiritual um because when we say it kind of you know brings to the surface things for people where they go okay I think I kind of understand where we're going here. But but in that uh in those writings everything is spiritual nothing exists that isn't spiritual um do you have thoughts on that? What do you what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Yeah yeah I love I love what you tell your kids um um I feel like you know I grew up Catholic so you know Jesus is um Jesus was is still kind of like my guy right I mean sure I I really love um you know the idea of Christ consciousness which really is to see the other as yourself which is a Buddhist thing as well you know there's that that thing that you know everybody you meet could have been your mother you know in your past life and and and I love that um and I um you know I think um I think you know that connection to um the spiritual you know the bigger um thing I you know I I love the idea and I was taught this in you know cat Catholic s school was which was that you know God is everything if there's something outside of God then everything is outside of God right like if God is indeed everything there's nothing outside of it and that's really challenging when we see things that are awful um when we especially and I especially when we are looking at other people and we see somebody who seems so like they're doing such intrinsically evil things actions and the way that I kind of come to that is that actions are made out of evil which I I I think of evil as true fear right like when if you you kind of base everything in like there's love and there's fear to me those are the two poles and fear is the basis of anger and war and greed and there's fear right and it's that fear of not being enough needing needing needing right um and if you see somebody who is behaving in these just horrific ways but you recognize the person as just as divine as anything else then how does that change our view of God how does that change our view of um of that person right and then then we somehow compassion comes. You know sometimes I I look at people who are doing terrible things like politicians or whatever and and I I try my hardest to see them as divine because I feel like it's kind of my job to do that to to bring light to darkness and sometimes I have to bring them down to their two year old self in order to do that right but because it's so hard for me to just detach myself from the grown up who's being such a jerk. Um and um but I think it's really crucial for us to do that. I think because we see what we get when we see the other as bad and when we see the other as pure evil. We see what we get you know I mean we it's used against us it's used to divide us it used to create war and poverty and everything bad in the world is because we see the other as unworthy right which to me is just a reflection of that feeling within ourselves that we're unworthy. So easy to project that onto somebody else and feel better about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

So I mean these are big you know conversations but uh no but they're they're great conversations because I and it might seem like uh like if somebody's listening today and they say wait a minute I I think this is I thought this was a music gigging podcast. I think I think this is this is such a uh an integral part of our overall health as artists as as musicians you know so we've talked about the voices inside our head we've talked about you know uh you know kind of understanding who we are at our core how we look at other people I think all of those things are vital because that's what we that's what we do you know when I said oh I'm a musician I'm not doing anything of value of the world actually music is vital to humanity and you know I I've felt lately there's just so much heaviness in the world and I have had that conversation with myself what are you doing like it's so trivial like making art making self-expression that's so trivial and there's so much terrible that you could be helping with and I think the core of humanity the thing that we most need to preserve is the humanity that comes out in creating art.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I mean art is the expression of the best of humanity and if I get beaten down to not do that then Then heaviness, darkness, wins, you know. I must do this. I must like keep as long as I can afford to do it, go out into the world and try to bring people together, gather them together, remind them that we are one heart. One one the drumbeat is moving through each body, like together, and all of those sound waves are moving through our bodies and they're uniting us in that moment, they're lifting us in the same place, and just being in that room together feels elevating, and we can forget that we get moved into division, and and I don't need to know how anybody thinks about who they vote for in that moment. We just love that music, you know. Yeah, and um, you know, I saw that during the pandemic. I was like, oh, people need to be in rock concerts immediately. Like that's too long, you know. People are forgotten that we're all like, we have a lot in common, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

So I remember uh probably 15, 20 years ago, somebody asked me, um, and they had a very specific thing in mind when they asked me this question, and I knew it, but they said, Um, could you tell me about the best worship experience that you've ever had? And I said, Oh, yeah. I said, I remember it, I remember falling to my knees at a Lenny Kravitz show and looking around and seeing people holding hands and singing, and I mean, honestly, Clemens, I tell you this, I'm starting to cry again because it was such a powerful thing. And um, I told them that and they looked at me so confused, and they said, Well, well, no, I mean, like I that no, that's not a the worship experience I was talking about, and I said, Well, who who told you that it was anything different than that? Because for me, that was monumental.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, to realize that there is no spiritual part of ourself. There's no spiritual life. You know, I had that for a long time. I was a rock and roll drummer, and then I was a meditator. You know, it's like I had these two sides of myself, and one day it just fell on me. Like, and I think a teacher told me this too like your spiritual life is your life. How you are in every moment. I mean, this is we're in it, we're waiting in the divine in every moment, you know, everything is here for us to recognize um the divine. And and um, you know, I I I think gratitude, you know, recognizing the gratitude and the grace that's around us is really, really lovely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

That's powerful. Well uh with your upbringing and uh you know your early kind of introduction to uh contemplative practices and uh what did you what did you have to unlearn to get to the spot you're at now? Is there anything you can think of?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Um I think really the you know, as far as my my Christian upbringing, I really held on fast to kind of the the Christ idea and all the other stuff I had a problem with kind of early on. Um, you know, I I really took the lessons that I learned early, you know, it was kind of the first lessons we had were about Jesus and you know, the way that he saw, you know, I don't know, everything. And um and everything, and then as time went on and I got taught other things, I was like, but that's not what Jesus said, but that's not what he said, you know, kind of thing. And my dad was a my dad was an atheist, so I had, you know, him too, not that he, you know, uh would say much about stuff, but I also saw that there was another way of thinking, right? So um, you know, and and was more critical of of that. But as far as what I had to unlearn, honestly, was the idea that um that the body, that that the point was to escape the body. The point was to float around in some some permanently happy, um permanently kind of even, equanimous, kind of, kind of floaty place, and that everything that happened in the world was just, you know, it was beneath or it was lower, right? And I realized a few years ago, I think I've been trying to escape the my this manifestation, this body, first through intellectualism, you know, always being in the mind. And then when I found spirituality, trying to escape and you know, and to be um, you know, to realize that, you know, this world is an illusion and you know, no need to like get bothered by it too much. And this one day um somebody told me this terrible thing that had happened in the world, and I realized in that moment I had no rise within me of any kind of horror or sadness. And I remember thinking, that's not right. I need to, I should be feeling things. Like, and then I realized I've been for whatever however you see it, and my idea is I've kind of chosen to come here and be manifest as this being, then why wouldn't I want to experience the deepest emotions, the deepest feelings to be fully present in my body? To like if everything is divine, then the body is divine too, then the mind is divine, then my bumbling around is divine, then then everything that happens is uh here for a lesson and for me to learn. And then I I kind of started to come back into this and recognize the ways I was trying to escape it. And um, an example of that is um when I stopped drinking or doing any um smoking any pot. I um because I never had a problem with those things, and yet they were consistent throughout my life. I'm a musician and it was just kind of a part of my social culture. And one day I thought, what would it be like to just be completely sober all the time? And it was like really scary, you know. And then I I thought, well, how am I gonna write songs? How am I gonna do, you know, get into those mindsets that I've always wanted to get into? And I realized my job is to get into the the fear of it. My job, like as soon as I it those feelings rise up, like, oh, you don't have anything to say, and I would smoke some pot and suddenly like my head would open up and I'd have a lot of ideas. Now I have to sit with that idea. You don't have anything to say, you're not worthy of doing music or whatever is coming up, and I have to dive right into the middle of that and try to find a song there. And so um that's kind of what I'm talking about, like wanting to escape into this, like kind of think, no, you got to dive into the hard stuff, and that's where that's the that that's where the good lessons are, and hopefully one of these days that's where a good song is, too.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah. Do you think musicians are uh naturally more open to contemplative practice?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I think that you know, learning any musical instrument, you have those moments where you are, you mean you have to do things repetitively over and over and over and over and over. And I think that is a natural um that opens up that natural ability to sit with yourself, you know, and and to to watch your mind work, watch your mind tell you to get up and you know, knock it off, and you're not worthy and you're not, no, I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna do this paradigm for you know an hour, you know, and try to get it into my body. Um, I I think that we do have a natural ability to at least sit quietly, at least recognize that we don't get instant gratification all the time. I mean, that's that's one thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Wow. And then I'm a guitarist. I don't have to do paradiddles, right? As a guitar.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

But you gotta do those little thing and do those things.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Have to stretch those fingers. Oh my goodness. What does um so as a full-time gigging musician, what does uh your spiritual life, contemplative life look like um daily, weekly? What are some of the habits that you have?

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Yeah, I have a little morning practice every morning um of of doing things. Mostly kind of um, you know, doing some practices of um, you know, I I guess it's more prayer um, you know, for for situations or people in my life, and then um and then connecting, you know, into that that open awareness place. Um and um there's that. And then at this point it really is kind of like just all day long kind of noticing, you know, noticing, noticing when I get, you know, when I I let myself get carried away by reactivity. And um yeah, and then I don't know, just trying to see other people as much as I can, trying to be present with them as much as I can.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

I appreciate you taking time to talk about these things. I I love this this angle of things on on this podcast, and um I think I think I'm gonna get a lot of emails on this one or text, you know, people wanting to to dig deeper into this stuff. Um with all of this said then, if if someone uh listening feels like they've uh they've lost some kind of connection to music, they've lost some kind of connection to themselves. Um are there some practical things that you can offer our listeners on like maybe how to get back on track or start finding your way?

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I mean putting aside just a little time uh every day for um to just kind of regulate our nervous system. I think our nervous systems these days are just, you know, with being able to scroll all the time, with constant, you know, constant input all the time. I think everybody's nervous system is really um amped up and um scrambles, scrambles our brain. And, you know, I always say that our our breath is the greatest gift that we have because um all it r is required of us really to calm the nervous system is to take deep breaths into the belly, you know, take a deep breath into the belly, hold it, and then just and then just notice what the body feels like, breathe a little while, and then do that again, you know, and do that just for 10 minutes even. We start to kind of come inside of our our mind. Um and then any kind of practice we can do to find um find that part of ourself that is always okay. You know, um we get we get trapped in this idea that there's something within us to fix, something to improve, something that isn't quite right, something that's been damaged. There is a part of ourself that is always well, that is always okay. And sometimes it helps. I think maybe that's what people refer to when they talk about that inner child, maybe that part of ourself before the terrible thing happened, or um, but that part of ourself, it's there. Like if we go into shock, that's the part of ourself that gets us from you know the crashed car to the phone, right? It's that part of ourself that that carries us through, that's okay, even though everything around us is falling apart. Um and any practices you can do to find that part is I think is really helpful. Um, that's one thing I like about that metaphoric shamanic system. You know, we call it our guide, right? The the part of ourself that has our highest good as its soul intent, and we connect with that part of ourself. And and that's that's our power. That's that's a part of ourself, I think, that that carries us through and that knows what our next step is. Um, I think that's what a writer connects with when they write. I think it's uh what a musician connects with when they're playing music. And if we're we're separated from that, um, you know, it it we end up questioning everything that we've done and and we start to see ourselves reflected in the outside world more rather than see ourselves as who we truly are and what we tr what truly gives us joy and lights us up. So um, you know, I've I've lost it before and and then refound it, and it's wonderful to connect with that part of ourselves, and we all have it, you know. Don't let anyone tell you you don't have that.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

That's that's so helpful. Thank you. And and I'll add that ever since you talked about breathing, I was breathing the entire time you were talking. I'm obsessive, compulsive. Good stop. I just I just noticed myself taking air into my belly.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

We forget, we forget. I mean, sometimes I look and I'm like panting, you know, because it's just like the world, you know. It's just like, oh gosh, just like just feel your body, you know. Um, yeah, we were living in these, we were living in these little spinning orbs we got in our our the middle of our head, and it's you know, it's good to get out of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

I appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks for being with us today. If Clementine, where uh where can people learn more about you? I'll put some links, you know, in the show notes, but can you just verbally tell us here as somebody's listening where they can find you, listen to your music, read your book, all that?

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Yeah, um my website is Clemthegreat.com.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Yeah, a name I chose a long time ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

That's great. And and they can just find all of the links to everything Clementine there. That's it. Clem the Great. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Thank you. Uh me as well. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Thanks for taking the time.

unknown 59:51

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Thanks for listening, everyone. And remember to stay creative, stay accurate, stay higher.