Ep 6: Let's Talk About Money PART ONE

In this episode, John opens the conversation many musicians quietly avoid, sidestep, ignore, or start breaking out in hives over . . . but constantly think about: money. In Let’s Talk About Money, Part One, he digs into the realities of getting paid as a working musician and why understanding your financial landscape is just as important as knowing your setlist. 

With his usual mix of humor, honesty, and practical insight, John begins unpacking the foundational ideas every gigging musician needs to understand about pricing, value, and the mindset around asking for what you’re worth. 

Transcript

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You are listening to the Gig to Live Podcast. Welcome everyone. I'm John Foles. I am a full-time working musician. This podcast is where I share the strategies, the mindset, and the lessons that help performers build something that works and something that lasts. We'll talk about smart moves, self-inflicted wounds, happy clients, drunk patrons, more gigs, better gigs, what to keep, what to toss out. If you gig or you want to gig, this podcast is for you. Well, good morning or afternoon or evening, whatever time of day you're listening right now, the the information's always the same, no matter what time zone or time of day it is. And if you're the stereotypical musician, you're probably not listening in the morning. But you are not stereotypical, are you? No. I mean, sleep in if you want, but nobody's gonna draw a circle around you and define you. You are your own person. I don't know what that's all about. All of that to say, I am glad that you are with me today. Oh, it's gonna be good today because we're gonna have the talk. Not that talk. But you know the talk we're not going to have, right? If you're a parent or if you've been a teenager at some point in your life, then you know about the talk, the birds and the bees. For every parent, it's that talk that's surrounded by uh some level of anxiety, right? Although when my wife had the talk with our youngest daughter, and my youngest daughter said, Ew, gross, my wife's superpowers kicked in, and she had the best comeback ever. She looked at my daughter and you and she said, If you think that's gross, just think about grandma and grandpa. Boom. Mother of the year, mic drop. Now we're not gonna have that talk. But for gigging musicians, the talk is something completely different, but it's surrounded by the same kind of anxiety, different topic. The topic is money. Money. It's a gas. Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash. Yes, we're gonna have that talk today. And I'm hoping by the end of this episode, uh, you're gonna have the tools that you need to price yourself and talk about your worth without feeling bad, negotiate with venues, and properly and kindly turn down gigs when you need to. So let's do it. Let's talk about money. Recently had a musician friend tell me that venues are offering the same pay today that they did in 1995. And you know what? He's not wrong. In a lot of markets, bar and restaurant base pay has barely moved in decades, if at all. And that's not necessarily true of weddings and private parties, by the way, but bar, restaurant, brewery, that kind of thing. When it comes to venues like bars and restaurants, it's been stagnant pay for decades. And there are a few reasons for that. And I I can vouch as a former venue owner that increasingly thinning margins for venues like food and alcohol and fees and compliances and insurance, everything is on the rise for venues. And some venues just see music as atmosphere. They don't see it like as a driver of business. So they don't need to pay more, especially when someone is always willing to do it on the cheap. The other thing that's played against us uh as full-time gigging musicians is the tip culture. Venues have increasingly relied on the fact that tips will make up the difference. Not only do you have a tip jar now, you have a Venmo or you have a PayPal QR code that didn't exist in 1995. If you're a gigging musician and you don't know how to price yourself, then you're not alone. Most performers either guess at it or they copy the lowest rate of the lowest guy or gal in town and they charge whatever the venue offers to them. But that's not strategy. That's survival mode. And we cannot be in survival mode. We are building something that lasts. So today's top 10 list is entitled Drum Roll, please. The top 10 things musicians need to know about money. Jut Ching. Here we go, number 10. Know your bottom line. What do you need to make per gig for this thing to make sense? You have to factor in your travel time, your setup, your teardown, your gear wear, your marketing, your rehearsal. The fact that you're not just working for three hours, right? A three-hour gig is often a six-hour commitment. So if you want to make sixty dollars an hour, let's say, in real life, then that three-hour gig better be $350-ish to $400 minimum. That's math, kids. If you have to travel, you need to figure in uh the fuel costs. Now, I don't figure in fuel for gigs less than 30 minutes away, but as soon as the gig gets over an hour away, then daddy has to fill the fuel tank. And I have a diesel super duty truck that I'm driving around. So you need to know your bottom line, and that doesn't mean that's what you charge, by the way. Know your bottom line. This weekend, I had someone approach me in public after they saw me play, and they were super excited. Oh, we love you. We want to hire you for our party. Uh, I looked real promising at the top. Just tell us what it costs. So I asked how long I'd be playing. I asked if it was in town or outside of town. I asked if it was inside or outside. I asked, asked if it would be on a weekday or a weekend that makes a difference. Uh, afternoon or evening. I I gave them my price, and the woman's eyes got huge. And she said, Oh, well, we didn't think it would be that much. So I said, That's okay. I understand. And then she asked how much it would be if I just showed up and sang two or three songs, and I gave her the exact same price. And I actually liked her response. I saw the wheels turning in her head, and she responded, I guess that makes sense. You still have to make the money for taking the time, don't you? Exactly. She was exactly right. Know your bottom line. Number nine. Know your zip code. One of the first things we need to ask ourselves when we're setting a price is where am I? Uh now, truth be told, your bottom line might even change zip code to zip code. You might have to ask other musicians you trust who live in the area, what the scene is like. Uh, look at the venue types in the area. You know, is it all bars? Is it high-end restaurants? Is it a rural community, or is it, you know, big lights, bright city? Uh, but beyond that, I'm convinced that you need a frequent zip code before you can really know what the market is capable of there. Now, this is more difficult if you're a traveling musician, you're just blowing in and out of town. Then you really have to rely on musicians in the area and just kind of your gut instinct about what's happening around there. Uh, you know, is it bars, is it high-end, whatever the case is. My wife and I spend six months uh a year, the fall and winter, uh, in California. And then we spend the spring and the summer in Michigan. And in both places, I have a three-hour travel limit that I've set for myself. And I try to keep it within 30 minutes, honestly, but sometimes it just makes sense to travel to an event because of the payola. So musicians in the Midwest will often say to me, oh, California, man, that must be nice. I bet the pay is so great out there. Nothing could be further from the truth. I charge, you ready, the exact same rate in each state. Oh, wow. I had no idea. It's crazy. Midwest spring and summer can pay the same as California because demand is compressed. When the weather in Michigan finally turns, people come out big time. They come out hard, patios fill up, festivals stack up, live music feels like an event, and that seasonal urgency drives spending and it drives energy. Oh my goodness, I love the Michigan lifestyle in the spring and summer. I mean, there is live music everywhere. People have been craving it. I've also found that generally people tip better in the Midwest than California. Generally. I've found some venues that I play in California where I really feel the love. But uh the bigger tip money in the Midwest is cultural and it's environmental. There's often a more relational blue-collar kind of a generosity. And I, you know, I grew up blue-collar. I get this. My dad uh is and has always been a great tipper as a blue-collar worker. He just understands, you know, the plight of the working person and he wants to honor them. And I just feel like that that's the attitude that prevails in the Midwest. People see you working, they feel connected to you, and they tip accordingly. Then different types of venues tip differently no matter where you are at. So we're gonna talk about that in a little bit. But uh that was number nine, know your zip code. Uh, it's all part of the big soup that we're making here. Number eight, know your venue. This is a big one. Uh, and I'm painting with large brush strokes again, but I do think that this is a good guideline, these things that we're going to talk about. Uh a winery on a Saturday night is not the same as a Tuesday afternoon coffee shop. Corporate event rates are not bar rates. Private parties are not restaurant background music. Different rooms, different value, different price. This is a big one, and we're going to take some time here. If you're playing bars, restaurants, wineries, breweries, clubhouses, house shows, funerals, weddings, rehearsal dinners, cocktail parties, private parties, then you you can't treat them as interchangeable. They may all look like another gig when you look at your Google calendar, uh, but they serve completely different purposes. They carry different expectations and they should be priced accordingly. So let's talk about bars first. Bars are about energy, they're about alcohol sales uh generally. You're there to keep people in the room and you're and you're there to keep people spending money. You're competing with televisions sometimes, uh, conversations, uh, and that just the general chaos of the nightlife. These gigs, the bar gigs, are often physically demanding and they're tip dependent. Oh, bars, I love you. These are the gigs where the drunk guys come up and talk your ear off right in your face about your gear. They have a thousand questions about your gear. Or they tell you about the 1930s Martin that they have in their closet that they never played and they don't know what to do with it, and they're wondering if it's okay that it has no strings on it. Uh that and I'm just hoping that that guy is drunk enough to give me that guitar at the end of the evening. No, I'm joking. I would not take advantage of him. But seriously, if you do have that guitar in your closet, I'll take it as long as you are of sound mine. Now, a weekend bar slot should pay more than a midweek filler night because the venue stands to make more money. And if you help pack the room and you keep it lively and you're contributing directly to the revenue, not just the atmosphere of the room, then your pricing should reflect that. And remember that a weekday bar gig is different, though. Not all bars are created equal. Uh, dive bars are different than sports bars. Uh, bars where musicians come through every single night are even more different. And uh the weekend and the weekday, they differ from one another. So bars is one. Restaurants, now here's a different animal. You are not the main event at a restaurant, usually. You're the ambiance. Your volume control really matters even more here. Your professionalism, uh, subtlety matters more here. You have to be on your toes more. The audience is there to eat and talk and not necessarily watch you. And that usually means fewer tips and less visible engagement. So the bass pay needs to make sense on its own. And if they want three hours of tasteful background music, then they should compensate you for your sustained presence there. Wineries. They tend to sell experience and an aesthetic. The setting is curated, the margins are often healthier there, your presence contributes to their brand image. These are frequently daytime or outdoor gigs, which come with their own logistical considerations for you. And because you're part of that atmosphere that they market to their customers, your value is tied to the overall experience. If you elevate that experience, then you should price accordingly. You're probably dressing differently here than you are at the bar, although I tend to dress it up a bit no matter where I go. Breweries. Now, some breweries lean towards this unorganized, messy, maybe a bit scrappy-doodle kind of uh atmosphere. And some breweries that I play at feel like a gas station, some feel like a hotel, some feel blue-collar, some lean towards pretentious, and it works in their favor. Some are really building this identity around live music. You need to know which type of brewery that you're working with. Uh, breweries, uh, which is a hard word to say, by the way, breweries often draw a mix of families and regulars and social groups. Uh you may be playing to patios or tap rooms. You may be in the space where the brewing is actually done. That happens to me at about three different venues. At breweries, I very often see dogs, by the way, everywhere. And they sometimes get vocal. Uh, there are some big shifting noise levels. Your adaptability is part of the value that you bring to that venue. One of my favorite recurring gigs is at a brewery. It's loud, it's busy, it's a bit chaotic, but it's super interactive, and the tips are amazing. There's lots of locals. There's a lot of pride surrounding this venue. Breweries, that's one thing. House shows. Oh man, these are intimate, right? And they're artist focus, smaller audience, paying closer attention, very high-touch events, lots of conversation. People want to chat with you. And these can be some of the most meaningful gigs that you play. They have been for me, because they're often uh ticketed events or they're donation-based with super low overhead, and you can sometimes earn more per person than you would at a bar, uh, even with fewer attendees at a house party. The connection is deeper. The merch opportunities, if you do merch, those are often stronger. Uh, then there's weddings. Weddings are in a completely different category. They're high pressure, they're once-in-a-lifetime events. I mean, you know, it might be their second or third marriage, but it's once in a lifetime in that they're not inviting people back to it next weekend. Timing has to be exact. Communication has to be clear, the emotional stakes are high. There's no second chances. It's it's not a bar gig and nice clothes, it's serious production work. And because of that, weddings should absolutely command significantly higher rates. You're being hired for precision, reliability, emotional intelligence, not just the music that you're playing, not just songs. You might, you're the you're the person with the microphone. You might even have MC duties. Generally, my wedding rates end up being about three times higher than a restaurant for the same amount of time because it's it's a freaking wedding. It's their moment. It has to be perfect in every way. It's it's like the difference between managing a social media account and building a website. No one's going to be talking about our giga ABC Distillery three months from now. I mean, unless we had some stellar moment that comes up in conversation. But they are going to absolutely be talking about the wedding music forever. Anniversaries? Every time they pull up that photo album? So for weddings, my starting price is twice what I charge for a three-hour gig at a good venue. And then we go from there. Then we have the add-ons, travel. Uh, is there feature music? Do I have to learn any songs? Is it wedding ceremony and cocktail hour? Is there a reception after? And all of those things add to the final cost. All right. And then before the wedding even happens, usually the night before on a Friday night for a Saturday wedding, there's the rehearsal dinner. Now, these are more relaxed than weddings, but they're still intimate and meaningful, and they require a polished vibe, a conversational vibe, a professional presence. They're private events, so they should pay more than a restaurant background gig, even if they're shorter in length, there is still a lot of pressure. Funerals. This is sacred work for sure. I I think of these as holy moments. They're they're often brief, but they're emotionally heavy. You may be learning specific songs that uh hold deep meaning for the family, you know, a favorite song, uh, that special song they are going to think of uh forever. It reminds them of uh of a loved one. The responsibility is high, and even if the time commitment is short, it's a lot of weight on you. Some musicians choose to adjust their pricing out of compassion, depending on the situation, and I I totally get that, and I do that, but we should never forget that emotional labor and reliability carry value. Private parties. Whether it's a birthday, an anniversary, a retirement party, a corporate gathering, these are all premium territory. You are hired directly to create that experience, and these should always pay more than a bar or a restaurant gig because you are the featured entertainment. You are not part of a venue's weekly programming. So private parties are always more expensive because I I don't put out a tip jar, so I always charge more. Uh so if the private party has to absorb that lost revenue for me, uh and I'm speaking especially on weekends. So, for example, if you expect to walk out of a Saturday night bar gig with 500 bucks or 600 bucks uh between your contract pay and your tips, then you should charge 500 or 600 for a private party on a Saturday night. The bar sells drinks, the restaurant sells ambiance, the winery sells experience, the brewery builds community, the house show sells connection, the wedding demands perfection, the funeral holds memories, the private party celebrates milestones. If you charge the same across all of those, then you're not pricing strategically. You're just guessing. Alright, here's what we're gonna do, gang, because there is so much information to cover, we are going to split this. Episode into two parts. So this ends part one. We are going to pick up in the next episode, which will be episode seven, and we will begin counting down from number seven in our top ten list, and we'll wrap it up. Until the next time, thank you for listening. Please do me a favor and subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. Wherever you're listening to the podcast, like it, you know, rate it, give it a thumbs up, whatever they do on that particular podcast platform, follow me for sure. Uh, and stay creative. Stay after it. Stay hired. Let me live, let me live, let me live, let me live, let me live, let me live, let me live, let me live.